The Ordinal Show

Space Summary

The Twitter Space The Ordinal Show hosted by LeonidasNFT. The Ordinal Show provides a deep dive into the realm of NFTs and the Metaverse, emphasizing creator empowerment, intellectual property considerations, and the pivotal role of blockchain interoperability. Experts foresee a future where NFTs redefine digital ownership and play a significant role in shaping the landscapes of the emerging Metaverse. Join the discussion to explore the evolving intersection of NFTs, creator rights, and the virtual world.

For more spaces, visit the NFT page.

Space Statistics

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Questions

Q: How do NFTs empower creators in the digital space?
A: NFTs offer new monetization avenues and ownership rights to creators, reshaping digital ownership models.

Q: What are the key considerations for intellectual property rights around NFTs?
A: Ensuring proper ownership attribution and rights management is crucial in the NFT ecosystem.

Q: How does blockchain interoperability enhance NFT utility?
A: Cross-chain compatibility improves NFT functionality, expanding their use cases and value.

Q: What role can NFTs play in shaping the future of the Metaverse?
A: NFTs may define virtual experiences, assets, and economies within the evolving Metaverse landscape.

Highlights

Time: 01:55:29
Impact of NFTs on Creator Rights Delving into the implications of NFTs on artist ownership and IP rights.

Time: 02:05:17
Blockchain Interoperability in NFTs Understanding how cross-chain compatibility enhances NFT utility and overall value.

Time: 02:15:40
Future Scenarios of NFT-driven Metaverse Discussing potential landscapes where NFTs shape the future of the Metaverse.

Key Takeaways

• Importance of NFTs for empowering creators and reshaping digital ownership.
• Discussion on intellectual property rights and ownership implications in the NFT space.
• Exploration of blockchain interoperability and its impact on NFT utility and value.
• Future visions of NFT-driven Metaverse and its potential landscape transformations.

Behind the Mic

Desire for Freedom

I want to break free I want to break. Free from your life yeah. I don't need you I got to break free God knows I want to break free I've fallen in love for the first time this time I know it's for real I fallen in love. Got no God. In love I can get more when I walk out the door oh, I. Want to be free. Oh, I want to be free oh, I want to break free hey, everybody.

Introduction to the Show

Welcome to the ordinary show. Yo, Trevor, you got better music for us? There we go. There we go. Good morning, bitcoiners. That's right, you're here at the ordinal show. Welcome back to our regulars and hello to our new friends. If this is your first time, the ordinal show is a live podcast. Also, twice per week on X spaces starting 10:30 a.m. eT Monday mornings and 06:30 p.m. eT Wednesday nights, going for multiple hours covering various topics all about building new cool shit on bitcoin. Ordinals are not just a new kind of empty in bitcoin, but a massive mood of people growing bitcoins, adoption, and bringing BTC to the masses.

Cultural Shift in Bitcoin

More important than the protocol itself, Ordinals is a cultural shift that's attracting new developers and users, incredible artists, and accelerating innovation. I'm Trevor BTC, CEO of Ninja alerts and managing partner at the Bitcoin Frontier Fund. I'm here with my co host, the king of BTC, Sparta Leonidas, our analyst, NFT history expert, and co founder of Ord IO. And today on this stage, we are joined by ad McBride, Query, Gray, MQM 420, Deadhead, and many more cool people come to our day show, guys. So I am super excited to be here and glad that you're all here with me.

Engagement and Interaction

I pinned a tweet to the top letting everyone know that we're live. Please take a second look at the tweet. The top, give it a like, give it a retweet, show some love for the algorithms, and welcome more people into the space. Also, smash that purple button in the bottom right hand corner of your comments and questions. Throw some GM and lg tweets in there. We'll read your questions about the show. Don't forget to follow the Bitcoin ordinal show on Twitter at the ordinal show. Subscribe to our Substac newsletter. Link in bio we post weekly recaps in the newsletter and RSVP links for future shows, as well as the condensed version of this show on Apple and Spotify podcast so you never miss what's happening on the leading edge of bitcoin.

Discussion with Leonidas

And with that, I'm going to turn over to Leonidas to introduce today's show. All right. Good morning, everybody. Trevor, great to have you back, guys. Jan will not be joining us today. Yeah, it's going to be Trevor and me holding down the fort. I do want to hear from Trevor first. Trevor, you've been tweeting out. Are you ready for pizza pets? Are we getting pizza pets soon? Is this happening? Are we? Of course, man. Pretty soon. As soon as possible, man. We're all hands on deck. We're just trying to finish all the collabs, make sure that we take care of everybody that's partnering with us and get the airdrop allocated to as many partnered communities as possible and ironing out a few things with the integration, just making sure we're testing everything, make sure that it's good to go since we get one shot to launch this and then, yeah, it's going to be like, there's not going to be any notice.

Information on Pizza Pets

You'll just wake up one day and there's going to be this weird thing in your wallet and it's going to be pretty cool. Yeah. Wait, so how do, so have you released the details of, like, which communities have been selected? Like, how many people will be getting how people can, like, because I know ninjas get more, for example, have you released all that information yet or is it just going to be kind of a surprise? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll post all that once we have it, like, all accounted for. So basically there's going to be a form that I'm going to post this week that's going to be like the, to confirm the allocation for every partner community. And then there will be like a second form to, you know, submit like, the screenshots of the giveaway in the discord, you know, like, we have to, like, make sure that nobody's trying to cheat the system, which is, you know, something you always got to be worried about in the crypto space to make sure it's fair for everybody.

Concerns and Transparency

A lot of manual work. And so, yeah, once that's done, like, it's, you know, it's pretty much smooth sailing from there. So there will be two forms for any of the project founders or project leaders out there who are partnering with us. The first form is just to confirm your outlook and get the exact number down. Submit all the evidence for that and then the second part is to make sure, like, you submit the US, the wallet addresses, you submit, like, screenshots of the giveaway. We check to make sure that you are actually giving them away to your community and. Yeah, and then we're good to go at that point. Yeah, we better not have any of these greedy project founders keeping them off for themselves, guys. Trevor, so, trevor, you got to call those people out. Okay? The whole point, the entire point, guys, is that this is spread out to everybody, right? Like, it's a huge collection that everyone will get to participate in, pretty much.

Distribution and Fairness

So that's the goal. That's the goal, man. Yeah. So, you know, we. There's no perfect system. There's nothing that's other than bitcoin. I think it's like, you know, 100% civil resistant. Right. So we got to make sure that nobody's trying to cheat the system. And, you know, I think the majority of people are not going to cheat the system, but it's like one bad apple in the barrel, you know, I'm saying can spoil it for a lot of people. Yeah. And it is just to kind of make it clear for everyone. It's a free airdrop, right? Yeah. 100%. Yep. So no claim even. It's not even a claim. It's not a mint where you, like, have a small fee. It's just pure airdrop. Just like Runestone or something like this.

Transaction Fees

100%. You will need to pay bitcoin transaction fees to feed your pet because it's all on chain. But, you know, that's going to be like a couple bucks or like a dollar or $2 or something. Dude, it's crazy. That's perfect. Right now, like, what do we think about this? This is, this is kind of. I don't. I don't know how I feel about. I feel like, really dumb about, you know, spending all of our, you know, runestone free and fair movement money, like by four meggers at 100 SAP review bed, I guess. But, you know, I guess, you know, you never know. You never know. Two sapper v bite was just around the corner, but it could have been 200 SAP ruby bite. Yeah. Yeah, totally, man. I mean, who knows what's going to be in this next cycle.

Market Trends

I mean, runes are pretty efficient, actually, per transaction compared to. Compared to other things. So runes, I think, had a much lighter impact on the menpole than we thought. Also, you know, we weren't in the bull market yet. We thought the bull market would, for the first time ever come right at the halving but I guess it's going to follow the exact same pattern that it followed the last three times in a row and happened, you know, six to nine months after the having. So there you go. Yeah, it's wild how closely these things line up. I'm curious, Charlie, with the two stop for v by situation and with to having happening. I've noticed that miners are often switching from BTC to actually mining these other projects like fractal and Caspa and Bell's coin.

Emergence of New Mining Projects

Like there's a bunch of them that I'm seeing pop up and I'm not sure this was really a thing twelve months ago whereas I remember it very much being a thing a very long time ago. Do you think this is a trend that will continue that we're going to see more of more proof of work happening on other blockchains? Check, check. Check, check. Yes. Yo, that's an interesting point you bring up, Leo. I think in some chats I've said something to the tune of like it's proof of work season again in that like you saw this trend in the mid 2010s where like everybody and their dog was launching a proof of work chain. You'd bootstrapped with like the growing, teeming like GPU miner cohort that was growing in like the late two thousand ten s and then like the ETH merge took all the wind out of the sails.

Proof of Work Dynamics

We saw several years of proof of stake chains launched right now. I mean yeah you're seeing miners switch between the, at least for bitcoin miners you're seeing them switch between various proof of work hashing algorithm, various proof of work chains. Fractal is like the big one. But this has kind of always been the thing. Like I remember like 19 and maybe 20. There was an era where it was like depending on the week, it was more profitable. Mine like bitcoin, cash for bitcoin. But it hasn't really been that way for a while. It's been mostly just bitcoin itself. One point of clarification is that. One. Of these like bitcoin mining rigs and ASIC can only hash one algorithm.

Mining Rig Limitations

And so chains that have the same algorithm, you might see miners switched between them. Bitcoin, bch, bsv, fractal, whatever. But a bitcoin miner will not mine Casper. You need a different machine to do that. And thats a whole different meta. But yeah, I mean youre seeing these miners especially when times are lean, people have to make decisions to survive. I would say, though, the vast majority of bitcoin miners are still just mining bitcoin, but there's like, you know, five to 10%, I think, who have looked at different hashing algorithms. Fascinating. Very fascinating.

Less Sustainable Strategies

Do you think we'll see, like, do you think we'll see this wave of, like, all these people are doing, like, proof of state chains over the past five years? Do you think we're going to see some more proof of work chains be a thing, like, do you think that is a real thing that's going to happen over the course of this bull run, that people will launch a new proof of work chain that you hear about, whereas the narrative you were told on ETH was proof of work is dead, that nobody's going to be launching these things anymore, and that's not actually turning out to be true, really. I think you'll see a bit of a resurgence. I will say I don't. It's actually harder to launch a proof of work chain because you need actual hash power to join with you on, like, at Genesis block at the first block.

Challenges in Launching New Chains

So it's just going to be harder to like, bootstrap those. I do think we can see people look at the fractal story, consider that a success story, and then try to redo the same thing. One of the big metas in proof of stake the past few years was the low float, high fully diluted value meta, which is that the people behind the chain keep a lot of tokens from themselves and the retail gets to fight amongst a smaller percentage of the supply and then the retail gets to be used as exit liquidity. I think that the market is strongly rejected this meta going forwards on proof of stake, but maybe we can run it back on proof of work.

Sustainability of Proof of Work

I don't know. I don't think that's a long term sustainable solution. I just do think that, as I said, it's harder to launch a proof of work chain because you need more people, you need more miners to jump in at day one proof of stake. You can just issue tokens and a few validators and go, proof works just harder to get going. Yeah. Ill also say that I dont think ive had the spicy opinion that, I think the real reason eth merged to proof of stake was because they understood that proof of work is probably a zero sum game in the long term. And so it does not make sense to try to compete with the grandfather of proof of work, which is bitcoin.

Short-lived Trends

So I think any proof of work scheme is probably on the three to five year timeline at max. Very interesting. Fascinating. Appreciate your takes there, Charlie. I'm curious, Adam. This is totally off the topic of ordinal show, to be honest. But I want to hear. So what are your thoughts on this thesis? I saw, so I noticed there's this one emergence of meme coins as a real asset class this cycle. And two cats are a theme, right? Like there's these billion dollar cat tokens on Solana. This is a real thing. Right? And I remember back in the early days, there were really two meme coins.

Emergence of Meme Coins

There was dogecoin and then monacoin both around 2015. And both proof of work doge is pumped. Incredible. It has a huge community. Mona, I don't hear anything about it. I just checked $16 million market captain, but pumped to almost a billion back in like 2017 during, like, the dogecoin pipe. It was like basically a peer to dogecoin. Right. And somehow it's completely been forgotten. Right. I'm curious, have you and the archaeologists thought about Mona at all, why it's like so little? I mean, I'm being serious. It's a proof of work meme coin.

Discussion on Monacoin

One of the og meme coins. It's the cat proof of work meme coin. Like that. Have people looked at this? Is there a reason why this thing is kind of just a dud? No, people have looked at everything. Now, after we relaunched Bell's coin, it kind of kicked off this meta of like, let's go back and find every old coin. And so, yeah, people have looked at it, but as we know, it's like, the narrative has to really be something special. I think for any of this stuff to kind of work long term and to Charlie's point, with a proof of work blockchain, it's really difficult to get enough hash power to make the chain sustainable.

Challenges for Old Coins

And I think it was funny, before I came on the show this morning, I made a tweet about how Bell's coins now merged mine and it ensures that bells will live on, which is honestly, I never thought, when we relaunched, I honestly never thought it would happen. It was like, it's like a miracle in a way that it kind of did happen just because it's so difficult to do that. I'm amazed you guys managed to do that. Adam. Such a fun story to watch. Literally, all I say, it's grace. I don't know if you guys are spiritual at all, but it's like, there's no way I could have planned that. To happen. It's literally impossible to have, you know, the right people come on the team to make it happen.

Team Dynamics

It's just impossible. Like, there's no way I could have organized it, even with all my connections in the space, there's no way. So I feel really blessed that happened. But to the same point, it's like, does it have enough of the strong enough narrative to keep going? Like, that's always the thing. And to that point, you know, I don't know. Time will tell, right? But yeah. To Leo, to finalize on your points, bro. It's so difficult. You know how it is, man. Attention is everything in this space. And can you maintain attention long enough to make these things work and build up enough? Really?

Sustaining Attention

I think it actually requires this community of early supporters and people who got in very early. And this gets to the very. To the point of, like, the free and fair movement. And I think why, like, something like dog has so much power behind it is because people got in and went through deep, like a deep go down near to zero bear market and accumulated when it was near zero. That you can have these stories of people getting rich off of it, which I think is a real key point of real long term value in the space.

Community Support

There has to be this core group of people, hardcore core group of people who were around in the real bad times. I think that gives these things multicycle life. That's my current thesis. And one of the reasons why I'm still hold on to my dog. Right. It's that I feel like there's this huge community of people who were in the. In the mud when it was really bad. So when it gets really good, if it ever does, if it gets really good, you know, you just have this community of supporters who.

Long-term Value

Who just give it this life. So that's my current thesis. We'll see how it goes, man. We'll see how it goes. Yeah, it's fascinating. So what you're. What you're basically saying there, if I read between the lines, is Mona doesn't have a community of people who was there. That's right, man. That's right. And what happens is there's no. There's no potential to accumulate enough of the supply now.

Supply Dynamics

Yeah. When it's super low. Because all of those early coins have been remind and are in bag holders hands who, you know, aren't willing to distribute them for free or near free or, you know, so it creates a dynamic of holders that doesn't allow people to get it. Like, basically now, like, you could pick up, dog. Whatever. Two weeks ago at a relatively low market cap, while you just can't. Those old coins that have this, like, really poor distribution mechanism, you just can't do it.

Opportunity for New Participants

And so, like with Bell's coin, people could mine it from. From literally day one. And so, you know, we have people. And then it dropped. Then again, it dropped to like $0.15, right, where everybody was calling dead. So there was lots of opportunities for people to get basically fat bags for a couple thousand dollars. Right. So just create that community, you know, of early holders, basically. Gotcha. Yeah. Fascinating. I do agree.

Distribution Challenges

There's a lot of projects just in crypto in general where the distribution screws it all up. It's like if you can't. If you can't get some people to come in and, like, the whole idea, right. It's like a tokens. It's like, I don't want to say this because it triggers the SEC or something, but it's kind of like a decentralized company or something, right? Like everyone has shares, everyone has stakes in it. And don't quote this to guys. And it gives everybody, it's like the same thing, like when everybody works at a company together and has shares and all the.

Decentralized Incentives

The investors have shares. Like everybody's on the team with a similar goal and a token. Like it is, at the end of the day, the same incentive, right? But people need to be able to come in and, you know, buy the token and acquire some. And if it's just 99% in the hands of whales, then why the hell would you do it? You know, community takeover by 1% and then, like, work for the bags of the whales. It's the issue I have with.

Ethical Considerations

With certain kind of blockchains and stuff. I'm like, guys, I'm like highly advising people to not work for these, like, super wealthy elites in our space. Like, work for your own bags. Do not work for other people's bags. Like, this is very clear to me. Like, if you don't feel like there's fair distribution and stuff, go find a project that does and work for those bags, because those are your bags and the people's bags and, like, communities bags.

Navigating Blockchain Dynamics

And it's just, there's a spectrum, basically, right? Like, there's a spectrum that's acceptable and. Yeah, I mean, the. The high float ftv stuff. I'm like, yeah, like, do you really want to work for, like, fractal bags where it's 99% is going to go to either miners or it's like 50% of minor, like 99% other stuff. It's like you can only buy 1% of the thing. It's just very bizarre. It's very bizarre.

Concerns About Market Manipulation

But it's. It's really hard though, right? Because you realize too that concentration of. Of tokens or coins, right, in a small group of VC's and founders pumps prices, right? I mean, I have no idea what fractals market cap is, but it's probably over a billion dollars right now. No, it's not. Oh, I haven't mined over 1%, like. Right, but it creates, I mean, but people talk about that, right.

Skeptical Investment Mechanics

People like, there's just, you know, when, I mean, I always point out like Brett, right, Brett on base, right. It's a meme coin pumped to like one and a half billion dollars because the team owned 99% of the token, right. So it's like, of course it can pump to whatever they want it to pump to, right. But, but that creates an incredible amount of awareness. I think what we're doing here and what you're doing with dog, this free and fair movement that has to at some point become the dominant narrative in price.

Fundamental Pricing Issues

And it's really difficult to get the price up when you have a really diverse group of holders where it's not centrally controlled. The majority of the token centrally controlled. And so like, there's this. It's like a battle going on right now that we have to kind of figure out. I think this is the cycle for figuring out, you know, where and where this attention wants to flow to. You know, does it want to flow because the price can pump up there and the majority of insiders make money or do we want to go in a different direction?

Conflicting Narratives in the Market

I think for me, that's kind of the battle that's happening right now in this kind of little niche of crypto. And I think, you know, I think I know where my money's put, but there is that other side that, you know, wants to kind of go the centralized vc route. Yeah. And ultimately, look, dude, it's like, it's a bottom up first, top down meta battling out. And I think the reality is like, the whole goal behind free and fair is like, look, we don't expect every project to be 100% free and fair.

Balancing Interests

Like, we took it to the absolute extreme intentionally. Like, that model is not going to make sense for everybody. There is many cases where it makes a lot of sense to not just have pure 100% go to the DJ's. Right? Like, you need people to have incentives to actually build a thing. You need people that have incentives to invest in a thing like that all completely makes sense. It's about finding somewhere in the middle of the spectrum that makes sense.

Retail Participation and Market Influence

It's like bringing us back to reality a little bit because I think it's a little, a lot of these projects, like, just some of the stuff of like, engine layer. Like, dude, I just look at these pie charts and they're just a little out of whack. And I think it's because retail has kind of just been sitting on the sidelines letting other people dictate the space. And those people have basically gotten a little too greedy. And it's like brink, like, retail gets to decide the price of these tokens at the end of the day.

Call for Retail Engagement

Like, the power is in the hands of retail, but they have to choose to vote and say there has to be some sort of line of what is in is it like is and is not acceptable? And hopefully what we end up with is like a balanced equation and hopefully we remove these. Like, you know, there really isn't a reason why you have to pay by, you need to set aside 10% of every token to pay to these, like, gatekeeper people. It's dumb.

Criticism of Gatekeeping in Blockchain

It's just dumb. Like, let's get rid of that. Like there are like, there's people that need incentives. I don't think paying for kols and binance to tweet about you and stuff is a good use of tokens. I think this is a terrible. Let's get rid of that from the pie chart and let's bring us a little bit more to the middle of the spectrum and put it in the hands of the people who really care and are going to be incentivized long term, which is the builders, the investors, the users of the products, the DGNs, this sort of thing, not the pump and dump type stuff, which, I mean, I'm coming to realize that the game is very much pumping dump.

Concerning Market Practices

Like when you pay a listing fee to a centralized exchange, like, what do you think they're doing with the token? Like they're literally tweeting out their listing announcement and their huge giveaway. And like the, like, you'll see they're doing it with Hamster and all these tokens right now. They're going to do that for about one month. Guess what's happening during that exact one month period, right, bro? But to your point, this is the difficult thing, right?

Balancing Listings with Integrity

And this is where, like, I'm with you, that some sort of balance needs to happen because at the same time, like, I'm a firm believer in the free and fair, it's a great movement. At the same time, you're completely hamstrung because you can't pay, you know, for these centralized listings. Right. And they all require payment. Right. And so, yeah, there's maybe like a middle ground there. I mean, I don't think we should have to pay for any exchange listing.

Issues with Centralized Exchanges

Right. But this is like the game we're in right now. So, yeah, I don't know. We're like, dude, how is it that like you're binance, you're this like 100 billion dollar company. Yeah. And you don't just have your best interest of your users in mind. It's like how at this point, is it acceptable that you're just listing like bad tokens intentionally to your, like you're literally taking your users and intentionally curating horrible investments for them.

Long-term Consequences for Exchanges

And you, I agree, you're only doing it to secure the bag for yourself. Like that is just going to dilute your brand and the position you're in over time. I feel like it's not in the interest of your users or your best interest over time. So all I'm saying is let's bring the pendulum back a little bit more in the middle. It's like maybe half of them, you list these like scammy things that, you know are down only and then half, you don't charge a listing fee.

Reform Proposals

And, you know, your, these dj's get access to the tokens that are exciting. Early verse. The reality is like, look, if finance waits to list dog to $3 billion, like their whole entire base of people was told to buy Nero at 15 million and then dog at 3 billion, that's like a huge loss for the users of finance. Right. Because they don't, I don't disagree with you, but they wrecked on Nero. It's like, what's the, what gives, right.

Discussion on Exchanges and Listings

There has to be a balance. There has to be a pendulum change. I mean, I'm sure you've discussed, you've talked with exchanges now. And I have to, like, literally, like every exchange, and I mean, other than the big ones who haven't asked for anything because we haven't gotten to that point, but all the smaller ones require payment and it's not insignificant. Right. It's like, it's a lot, you know, and it was stunning to me to see kind of a peek a little bit behind the curtain, you know, trying to get a coin on an exchange.

Insight on Exchange Operations

And they all required it. Right? It's. It was. It's. It is stunning. If you don't see it. Maybe it's just part of the game that because everybody asks, everybody can keep asking, you know, and it's going to require one of these big guys like finance to just say x. We don't charge for listings anymore. It's all based on merit. You know, maybe. Maybe it's.

Merit-Based Listing Opportunities

I mean, dude, I literally do think this would be super bullish. They make an insane amount of money on volume. And look, I think, like, I think the loss of the listing fee, while very profitable mechanism, I think you build back with brand and competitive advantage and more volume, simply because you're listing the best tokens, you're gonna have more volume. Like, finance is not getting the volume that they could with dog right now.

Volume Considerations

Finance is not getting the volume with Bell's coin that they could right now. There's really no reason why not to list those tokens, right? Like, why not list uncommon sats on binance? Right? Like, there's no reason. It's very. I don't know, it's interesting to me. I think you cure, you curate. At a certain point, you have thousands of tokens on your exchange.

Future of Token Listings

I don't really see the difference offering, you know, a thousand more. but I'm sure, look, there. There's reasons why this is the model. It's clearly more profitable to do it the other way they think. So I'm, you know, I'm not saying they're wrong from a business perspective, but it feels to me like there's a. There's a move there. It's kind of like I've been a fan of the idea of.

Valuation and Affordability

Look, you're Stanford, you're Harvard. You have these massive endowments, offer free tuition. Make it. Make it not this, like, elite thing. Like, I think the branding is incredible for that. And you're like Harvard and Stanford competing to have the lowest acceptance rate. Well, you know, get rid of tuition. You just checkmated the other guy.

Discussion Transition

I'll stop talking about this. Adam, I appreciate you. You coming up and sharing and answering my questions here. I do want to go over to Vincent. Vincent, what's up, dude? Do you have any thoughts on the conversation?

Adam's Perspective

Good morning. No, I really appreciate Adam's perspective because that conversation kind of has to happen. What are the, you know, what's the devil's advocate, what's the cons? What takes long for adoption to happen with dog? When you look at, you know, bitcoin and dog, they almost follow the same narrative, which is why would Satoshi Nakamoto pay a listing fee? Right? Because obviously bitcoin is meant for the people. People have to decide and determine the value of what that specific token is. And this is kind of why we say study dog, because just like the white paper for bitcoin, when you study and understand the principles, what it was created for, you realize the same thing with dog. When you study it, you just take that orange pill, or in this case, the orange dog.

Understanding Dog and Bitcoin

And once you study it, once you understand it, you can't take your eyes off of it. And then you start to see this pattern starts to reveal what's been going on in the meme coin system, the VC backed system, the insider trading system and these centralized exchange listings. Having to accept a payment upfront. A lot of what you learn about dog, you start to see what's exposed behind these closed curtains and these smokescreens, what's actually happening in our industry. I think that's what's really important. The way that bitcoin exposed the fiat corruption that's happening within the global economy. So it may take a while, just like bitcoin did, but once you take that orange pillow, the orange dog, it becomes almost hypnotic and you can't unsee it after that.

The Role of Centralized Exchanges

And so in my personal opinion, I actually, I like to think of it this way. Yes, the centralized exchanges are an amazing benefit to providing a little bit more liquidity or a lot more liquidity into dog. But at the same time, I can't ignore the ultimate message, which is it's not dependent on the centralized exchanges. I think the main motivation of dog was where does the community stand as a mindset, as a global movement, in that way and understanding where we stand. Like where what are people learning from their mistakes, from falling into rugs on Solana or Ethereum? If it's meme coins, people are kind of done not being there early and then being too late when it's listed. So to me, I think it's about how big can the community get alongside and parallel to how large the market cap can get.

Community and Market Cap Dynamics

Because in some way people like to picture the market cap to determine the value of the community, but at the same time the community is also doing it, vice versa. The community is determining the value of the token by the number of unique holders, by the. The price or whatever. So there's a nice balance there. And every person that I've heard or met that has studied dog has taken the pill, and it's almost like they can't talk about anything else. I can't speak for everybody, but that's just people that I've encountered. So I think right now, what we're seeing is the very early stages. Remember, we're only month five into runes. I am seeing much more understanding, I think, because everybody, from smaller accounts to big accounts, are reporting on dog in their own way.

Anticipating Growth

That's the benefits, really showing. That's for the people, from the people. And, Yeah, I just want to share that perspective because this is a really interesting conversation. Yep. Man, I super appreciate it and love the take. At the end of the day, I'm coming around to this idea of. And I'm nothing lying when I'm telling you this, I literally do think that it's like we have the community to get dog to go to the moon. So if you move past that, the binance listing becomes inevitable at some point along this journey. So if that is your belief, to me, it's super bullish, because, look, if they don't list us for a while, it's kind of like you're building up.

Building Anticipation

You're building up this. I don't know. I'm trying to think of an example. It's like, volcano is about to erupt, but you just let it get bigger and bigger before it erupts or something like this, then you have a much bigger eruption. So it also proves our point. It's like, this is why the free and fair movement was needed. We're making history. When you go to $980 million and don't get listed on binance and they list a $15 million token, this is making it extremely apparent to everyone what we're doing here and why were doing it right. We have a very clear point that we're making, and binance is a great partner in helping us make that point.

A Reflection on Market Growth

They don't even realize that, but it's the case. So even at 400 million, bro, like, 400 million even right now is a lot considered, considering if you compare to other dog or whatever meme coins are out there, that already shows that went from 200 to 400 within a short amount of time. People are growing more and more aware of that, and it. To me, this market cap of dog is going to reach a billion dollars. Okay, I'm trying not to be naive. Okay. I'm always, like, trying to be realistic as possible and conservative as possible. But it's, to me, the community wants to go over a billion before any centralized exchange listing even announces they're going to do a spot listing.

Centralized Exchanges and Community Dynamics

Exchange listings are bearish. You guys heard it here. First, we don't want the centralized exchanges to list on. We want to go to a billion without the centralized exchanges. This is a fact. I'm honestly 90% serious, 10% joking. I actually think that would be, like, incredibly bullish because we already got so close. But, yeah, Vincent, I'm with you, dude. Okay. I want to hear what dogfather has to say. Dogfather, what's up, man? Hey, gm. First, I really liked how the dog was barking in disbelief when you talked about the listing fees.

Justice in Listings Discussion

I think the dog that was barking has a very good sense of justice and how it should be. So let's trust the gut feeling of the dog. And then second, I would really like to learn from people who know better about centralized exchanges why gate is such an outlier. They're always super early in listing. I know they are not like one of the tier one exchanges, but still, that's pretty interesting. And then third, there's always the discussion popping up, and I think it will be louder the longer it takes till binance OKX and the stuff listing to have a community organized honeypot to collect some money to pay the listing fees at some point in time.

Potential Outcomes of Listings

So just, you know, I'm not taking sides here. There are pros and cons, but I think it's worth to discuss. Maybe not right now, but maybe next year when these listings did not materialize yet. Yeah, it's a good questions. I'm curious, does anybody on stage want to try to answer? So I'm not necessarily answering. Yeah, I think I can speak on the gate craze of why gate is able to be early. It's just a difference in strategy. So gate made its way by just basically being early on meme coins and odd coins.

Analyzing Gate's Strategy

On the last cycle, they couldn't compete on marketing and sponsoring Formula One teams and stuff like that, so they grew their community through listing early coins, and they continued to do so. And I think it works for them. And binance on the other side, they became too big and so conservative on listings because of regulation. And then after CZ left, the game hasn't been the same. What I hear is from the grip vines is that since easy left, things change a little bit, and then the team behind listings sort of took advantage of that, and they're basically corrupt and getting paid to get these things listed.

Critique of Binance's Current Strategy

So, which is normal in crypto, but we know this of many other exchanges, like you pay the business developers or the listing guys to get you listed up there. Binance was different, was more like more innovation and stuff like that. But now that hall play is not the same right now. You're looking at kind of scammy things. But I, I think it's going to change very soon. CZ is out of jail now, so, you know, we might see dog next from there, man, who knows? But dog to the moon, we bullish. I mean, I personally don't give a fuck anymore about the centralized exchanges, the better we are outside of that range right now.

Exploring the Future of Centralized Exchanges

I mean, the, the more we are not on the centralized big exchanges, the better. Until after a billion dollars. That's gonna be fun. You know, I'm coming around to this. I'm coming, I got. I don't think, like, people listening to this are gonna think Gray and Vincent and I are like lying and like just doing a marketing thing. I'm dead ass serious. I think it would be kind of bearish. Like, I want us to just keep rolling. Let's keep rolling. Let's keep tweeting at these guys.

The Path Forward

Let's make it so obviously how corrupt this whole thing is. And yeah, let's see if we can go to a billion without any of the mustangles. I think that would be incredibly bullish. Okay. All right, we can change from the dog topic here. This is the ordinal show, not the dog show. We host the dog shows on Fridays. Trevor, I'm curious, why do you think we saw the uptick in runes and ordinals activity in the past, maybe like ten days? We clearly saw the energy come back into the space, both asset classes pumped.

Market Observations

I think we predicted that on the show here that one won't pump without the other. They kind of need each other. What do you think was the root cause, in your opinion, based on watching everything play out? Oh, I mean, definitely the fed interest rate cut and the feeling that we're having like a fed pivot basically that there's going to be another interest rate cut coming up soon. I think that's probably going to be the main catalyst for the bull market to return is just generally the Fed continuing to cut interest rates. This is like the first time this year that they've cut interest rates.

Understanding Interest Rate Impacts

Interest rates were raised quite aggressively last year, and so we're still at the point where the interest rates are just too high for, you know, majority of capital to want to allocate to risk your asset classes because they're just getting too good. Can you explain that decision to people who might not be like, into trading in bigger markets like that and like how like the guaranteed return on high interest is going to make it less appealing? Can you explain the logic there to people? Yeah, it's pretty wild.

Interest Rates and Risky Assets

I think once you've had enough time to observe like, how big of an impact the overall interest rate just has on everything when it comes to not just the crypto space, but also the startup and venture capital space. I mean, there's a very high correlation between just literally the interest rate and how much capital is moving into what's considered riskier assets. And of course, like startup equity, bitcoin, nfts, all of these assets are considered on the bleeding edge, and so therefore they're considered riskier.

Historical Context of Interest Rates

And so when the interest rate is really low, we had ten years of zero to 1%, 2% interest rates, and so you couldn't get return on your capital to offset inflation from low risk treasuries, right? So treasuries are considered to be the lowest risk assets debt issued by the government, and the interest rate is based on the interest rate the government is paying on that debt. And so for like a decade, it was like 1%, right. And that's why the economy was roaring for a decade in unprecedented levels of venture capital increasing year over year.

Recent Interest Rate Changes

And overall, this space is being very attractive, the crypto space. But now interest rates have gone up super high. And so if you're a capital allocator, putting your capital in those low risk treasuries just makes the most sense because the government would have to default, which if you're in this space, you might believe is actually quite risky, that maybe the government is going to default because the debt is just insane at this point. But for majority of capital, allocate allocators, like, they don't necessarily subscribe to that, right?

Risk Evaluation in Investment

Like the pension funds, which make up a large percentage of the capital that gets allocated. Like you were talking about the Harvard endowment recently, right? Like all this, like old money, sovereign wealth funds, et cetera. You know, they're going to put their money in treasuries. If they're getting four or 5%, then, you know, something like a crypto startup, etcetera, vc fund has to be doing 15 20% for the risk adjusted return to be profitable. So it just tends to happen that I think when the dgens and everybody in this space does see the interest rates start to go down.

Market Movement Anticipation

The first move is for us to probably move out of stables, go more into the crypto assets that we love, bitcoin, ordinals, et cetera. And so just basically, if the interest rate goes down, the bull market's back. It's just as simple as that, because capital is going to need to find a place to get higher returns, and they're no longer to get those higher returns from what's considered the risk free assets like the government debt and treasuries. So that's where we're at right now.

Future Projections

And seeing the first interest rate cut in the past, like two years or 18 months, is pretty bullish to see that there's potentially that the Fed has pivoted and they're going to start continuing to lower interest rates. But it's still relatively uncertain because, of course, they're going to lower interest rates a little bit before the election to get people feeling good about the current administration. And historically, that's what the government has always done, is that in the election year, the interest rates where the economy is juiced somehow by the federal government to make the voters more bullish on the incumbent administration.

Trust in Economic Recovery

And we'll see if this continues. But I think there's very strong odds on polymarket, for example, there's going to be another interest rate cut, if not two interest rate cuts, before the end of the year. And, yeah, it should be smooth sailing. I think that bitcoin has a high chance of getting to the next, passing the all time high with the next interest rate cut, and that would sort of lead to the cascade of the bull run as we know it and more capital coming in. But it could require more interest rate cuts.

Caution in Predictions

I mean, who knows? Yeah, love it, Trevor. And I do think you explained that really eloquently. I think we use the term interest rates a lot, and I think it's just important that people actually understand that people don't just like talking about interest rates. It's an actual phenomenon that is fundamental to these markets. And we are literally the asset class that is like, the, like, we are the most frothy risk on, you know, the one that the, like, when the 2021 crash happened with, like, everything, like, you know, it was tech startups and crypto that got crushed.

Impact of Market Volatility

Like, we, they were considered like, two of the highest, most volatile risk on asset classes. And that makes sense. It's like one out of a thousand of these startups goes to become, you know, $100 billion. Right. It's like, very risky and same with crypto, right, it's a very few amount of coins you've actually been able to maintain at the top hundred coin market cap for long periods of time. And if you're a high net worth individual, if you're an endowment, right, all you care about is preserving the wealth.

Investor Incentives

That's your job. You have a mandate if you're an endowment and if you're a high net worth individual, you just want to make sure you're beating inflation so that you have wealth to give to pass on to your children, for example. And that's pretty much all your incentive is. So if you have a guaranteed 5% right that you're going to get through the interest rate, and there's only like, you know, 2.3% inflation or whatever it is, or 2.5% inflation, that's just free money, and it's a essentially guaranteed right.

Guaranteed Returns

Why would you not do that if that is your goal? If you're not like you could be, there are more people who are going to be more risky, but a lot of people just have a goal of preserving wealth, and those people are not. They're not out there being, they're not investing in new venture funds right now. They're not buying bitcoin because they don't. They don't see any need to. Interest rates come down, right?

Shifts in Economic Strategy

And then all of a sudden, they have a massive problem. There is no more guaranteed free check from the government, okay? And that's exactly what's starting to happen. Their little free ride is coming to an end, and they're going to have to start diversifying and investing and being a little more risk on. Right, if they want to preserve their wealth. And that is a shift that is basically going to play out over the next two years or so. And people are anticipating that happening and that money flows directly back into things like gold, like crypto, like venture funds, like hedge funds.

Interest Rates and Market Dynamics

And that's. That's all we're talking about when we talk about interest rates and why everyone is so focused on the interest rates, because it has a literal, direct impact. It's a lever that the government pulls that directly impacts the markets. And it's being pulled very hard right now to kind of correct from how hard it was pulled the other way, which, again, you have to understand, that's why we got wrecked guys.

Market Corrections and Economic Factors

Yes, SBF and do Quan and these three arrows, capitalist guys, they were very greedy, but it was very much exacerbated by the outrageous government spending which ultimately led to inflation, which ultimately led to, you guessed, it interest rates going up. These equations are not actually as rocket science as they sounded. For the people who their eyes glazed over when people talk about interest rates. I hope that was a little helpful. I hope people also don't feel like we're babying them or something who do know what interest rates are and why this makes sense, but I thought it would be worth just worth going over for those people who don't.

Conclusion on Economic Discussions

Dogfather, what's up, man? Yeah, maybe on top of the macro stuff, which is obviously driving everything, it was interesting to check the data a bit on who's actually entering back into the market. So the first ordinary collection that was going up was note marks with high volume. So I had a look at who's actually investing in these note marks. I mean, old investors like Runestore, Runestone eligible addresses, or former note mark holders, or new address or further addresses.

Market Recovery Observations

And it was just in the first days, it was really just taking the like close to 800 sales, note mark sales since the bottom of early September. It was like over 70% runestone wallets and former note mark holders. So just less than one third was like fresh money. So I think we are still relatively early in the recovery because it's mostly ordinal ogs that were coming back, just taking these discounted prices to position themselves for October and the coming bull market.

Early Stages of Recovery

So it's still super early from my point of view. Yeah, Dogfather, I'm 1000% with you. I think it's the same cohort of people who was hanging out during the summer in this little bear market. I kind of see this like on or IO because I run an ordinals explorer, I get to see the traffic and like, the traffic hasn't just gotten like, there hasn't just been like a huge surge in traffic over the last week. That definitely traffic surge coincides with new money coming in.

Identifying Patterns in Traffic Changes

Right. And I think especially what you guys need to be looking for is like when you watch new mints start happening on a weekly basis where there's like a big new mint every week, that specifically, like, that is not, guys, that is not the reason new money comes into the space. It's actually kind of correlated. But the reason new money comes into the space is because they see opportunity. And that is actually what attracts the mints to start. It's not like people just decide, hey, we're going to start minting, and then the new money comes in because they want to mint, even though there is obviously phenomenon there.

New Money and Market Opportunities

But it's actually that people are bullish again, new money is entering the space, and the mints will, like clockwork, show up and give them something to buy. So that is how to kind of think about that. And that has not happened. The mints are not really back. The new money is not coming in. And that's actually kind of bullish because that's, again, we talk about things that might seem bearish as being bullish, but it's actually the case. Right. That means there's upside, there's opportunity.

Market Potential and Growth

If we're in a scenario where we've already onboarded all of Solana to Bitcoin, who's the next incremental buyer of these assets. Right? So, yeah, it's the same people from the summer. And dogfather, your data clearly backs up that thesis. It sounds like this. This is just the ogs from ordinals who are here. They weren't. They weren't leaving. They stuck around and they're basically seeing that the tides have turned and they're basically getting. They realize this is their last chance to buy close to the bottom, basically.

Strategic Buying Opportunity

And, you know, hopefully nobody can predict the future, but I'm hoping that we get some BTC all time high soon. I would love for us to get an all time high in the inflation adjusted USDA bitcoin price of $80,000. That would be extremely bullish for the space. Things are very bullish narrative that retail genuinely does kind of sit on the sidelines until they see us smashing all time highs and stuff like BTC and ETH.

Retail Sentiment in Market Movements

Until they see that even. Even to be honest, with, like, NFTs, they need to see, like, NFT starting to hit some all time highs. Like, we got to get crypto punks, you know, back to over 100 ETH, for example. Like, if you really want to convince people that we're in a bull run, you can't be under an all time high. This is just not. It's not gonna. Retail doesn't, like, get super excited that, like, bitcoin hit a price that it's already been at.

Creating Excitement Through Milestones

That's not that big of a headline. People get very excited when every day there's a new bitcoin all time high. It creates a frenzy unlike anything like. It genuinely. Number go up is the biggest advertisement for crypto possible. And all time highs are, like, the peak announcement and peak news of number go up. And we haven't really had the, like, crazy all time highs. Like, I point this out because I think it's important. Like, bitcoin is not hit an inflation adjusted all time high, yet we are still prior to that point in the cycle.

Cycles in Crypto Markets

And if you go look at the prior three cycles, I mean, it's the start of the mountain, if that's the case, right. Hitting the prior inflation adjusted all time high is really when things start to kick off. And we have not hit that yet. And I think for that reason, we're early, and a lot of people feel that. And they're positioning themselves just like they were positioning themselves this summer, being a little more risk off, waiting to see how low ordinals would go to then scoop.

Positioning for Future Growth

They're realizing that probably the bottoms in and they're their last chances now. So very interesting to see that data, and I'm very curious to see, like, you know, will experts start getting, you know, a million new people coming in to download experts, for example, like, these are the kind of signals that you want. Like, there's periods of time where X versus getting an insane amount of downloads every week. I know. Cause I get to talk to Yan, who happens to work there.

Anticipating New Entrants

Right. And, like, you know, that is the sort of signal. And I think we're not at that phase of this yet. We're just at the phase of just the turn. The winds have changed, but it's just the inkling beginning of it, and we'll see if it continues and if new money comes in, because I do think that's an important part of these cycles is the new money entering the ecosystem.

Welcoming New Voices

Okay, let's get swag TOshi up here. Let's see what swag TOshi has to say on this lovely morning. We also have profits. What's up, profits? How you doing? Profits is up here for provinces harvesting followers from the ordinal show. You heard that? Your first swag. What's up, man? How you doing? Hey. Finally got 8 hours of sleep. Good to see you guys are still running.

Sleep and Persistence

Going hard all week. Dude, I got, I feel like I got the. The simulation software update early, dude. This new GPT update, like, I'm actually brought in to sane working code to the point where, like, this idea that I've always had and what I wanted to do with, like, cards and something that's interactive is, like, it's actually possible. And I, like, couldn't fucking sleep all last week, two, 3 hours a night, like, hopping up just to fucking keep going.

Creative Process with Technology

It's. It felt like you have the most capable staff ever, the person that, like, literally knows everything. But, like, for me, as, like, an artist that has all these ideas always going through my head, like, getting them down and keeping track of them is, like, the hardest fucking thing. And, like, it was always finding, like, how do I work this AI into my workflow that it actually, like, helps me in a way and shout out, Butoshi.

AI as a Helper

Like, he keeps putting out stuff that's. That's helping, you know, solve this problem. I think it's going to just continue to be a big problem the way, like, people interact with stuff and just their intention spans. Like, I ultimately, when we talk about, like, AI taking jobs, I don't think it's, you know, ultimately, like, you can save yourself by just learning how to interact with it and how to prompt and just, like, how to. How to answer questions you probably don't even know you can answer yourself.

Empowering Individuals

So. I don't know. I think it's just a huge upgrade for, like, the individual people out there that don't have a team that just ultimately want to do everything. Like, I'm. I don't know why I choose expert mode, but, like, clearly I need help at some point. It's just, like, the. The satisfaction. Like, I feel really proud to have been able to figure it out. I just didn't think I'd be able to, so.

Exploring New Technologies

Yeah, dude, what model do you use? The four oh has been crushing it for me in terms of, like. Like, I literally ran. If you go to. I have it linked in my bio. It's a website I made. I've never made a website before, but now I have, like, a working, interactive HTML flip. Like, I'm building out the shop page. I'm trying to do something cool, which is, like, just taking me a little longer than expected.

A Journey of Creation

But, like, when I have the ability to do it, I feel like it's a disservice to myself to, like, not try to do something that I feel like is fucking sick. So ultimately, it's. I want to show, like, there's. There hasn't really been something that interests me from, like, a physical collecting perspective. Honestly, even in web two shit, like, I'm sick of all that stuff. Like, the, like, I used to be, you know, big sneaker collector.

Rethinking Physical Collectibles

I used to love, like, you know, getting that thing that, like, is. Is limited and rare, but it's like, you don't stand a chance anymore. They just, like, they send them to influencers six months before they even drop these things. You know, you got to have a backdoor. Wait, how is this different than crypto? Well, so we have the ability now to, I think, do it in a different way.

Evolving Collecting Experiences

You know, you can buy those things and, like, they're not even fucking real. They're pumping out dupes that are, like, exactly the fucking same. You know, we have a chance to kind of, like, redefine that collecting experience, I think, and do it in a way where, like, you're doing it verifiably on chain. And as an independent artist, like, I can't share shit before I put it on chain because it's like, you know, everyone's around here running around with teams with money that, like, you just beat me to my idea.

Chain Verification in Art

And so, yeah, it's going to work like this. I didn't want to create so that each good will have. Have a related ordinal that is attached to it and that acts as, like, an authentication piece. But I didn't want to do it in a way where people were just going and getting the digital artifact on the front end to where they were for the people that actually wanted the thing, they were then just, like, reselling the claim function, which is, I feel like how it's always been done.

Redefining Claims and Ownership

It's always been like, you get this digital artifact and you go claim the physical good, but then you don't have the digital artifact anymore. Or maybe in some cases you do. But I thought that was kind of counterintuitive to what I was trying to do where, you know, create this collecting experience where people that want to collect the thing are able to collect the thing and putting in the restrictions for the bots, like, you know, so I've been working on just trying to get all the thoughts out, but the drop will be essentially the physical goods on the front end and a claim function to claim your authentication, which would.

Conclusion on Product Development

Which would be that ordinal. So there's a couple more things I need to iron out, but it all makes sense. I just. Putting FAQ together so at least is digestible because it's a lot. I've been working on this for fucking months. Love it. And you're not hiring coders because literally you can use chat. Yeah, yeah, that's badass.

Innovation in Creativity

I love. I love hearing that, bro. I love hearing that. Yeah, we probably should have butoshi up here and do, like, some kind of recursive inscriptions masterclass using chatubt or something. I feel like that could be. Could be a fun exercise for people to get to play around with this stuff because so many people do feel out of the loop when they can't code and like, that.

Barriers in Tech and Community

Guys, that is, like, completely. Yeah, it's my biggest barrier, especially around here because you have to have that technical ability or you have to rely on others. And I think the hardest thing around here is finding the others that you can trust, especially with your ideas and stuff. Yup, 1000%, 100,000%. Bugsy, what's up, man? How are you doing? Hey, good morning, guys.

Market Sentiment Reflection

I was just obviously don't want to talk about macro too much, but whenever I see people that say fed cuts equals bull run or new money is going to come in because cuts are happening, I would just kind of push back a little bit on that and kind of look towards the Great Depression of 1929 to 1932. At the time, interest rates were actually at a record low for that time, and what followed was not good.

Historical Analysis

So just, I would really recommend people to look into how interest rates actually affect the market. It's not a one for one correlation. The Fed does not control how banks issue new loans to people. They don't have to issue new loans if they think it's too risky. This is not how it works. The Fed doesn't just say we're pivoting and the bull market is now here. Just past experiences with past history.

Skepticism Towards Macro Indicators

That is not always the case. I hate to be the bear here and say, well, maybe we're not entering a new bull run right now. I would just say be careful with what people say and how bullish people get because it's not always the case. And interest rates or Fed cutting rates does not necessarily equal new money, new flow, new bull run.

Caution in Predictions

Yeah. So in the Great Depression, which is a great example, obviously strong precedent that you're bringing up, were in a massive recession during that moment of time. We are not in a recession today, and we could head into a recession, but we're not, at least for the moment, in a recession. And the interest rates being low in that recession specifically was a reflection on the fact that the economy was in such a poor state that you could lend somebody capital and they didn't even know what to do with it.

Contextual Relevance

Interest rates were low because if you're borrowing this money, right, you're not even confident you can return the exact same amount of money a year later, for example. So it's like that was the driver for interest rates. It's that there was literally no opportunity to even put money into, which is the byproduct of an extremely serious recession that our country went through, that the United States went through from people who are from the United States, that are grandparents, in many cases lived through.

Reflections on Economic Conditions

And that's just a byproduct of like there was nothing going on. Like the whole thing grinded to a halt and it's like, where are you going to put money? You're going to invest in everything. Like you're going to go start a business. Good luck getting a loan and starting a business and returning your loan, buddy. It ain't going to happen. So I think that's a reflection of just a poor economic environment at the time.

Economic Environment Impact

But I do hear you and look, if we go into a recession, it does completely change the equation. Bugs. I actually completely acknowledge that. And if that is what's happening. Peter Thiel just called for a recession two weeks ago. You know, people always call for recessions. It's hard to know if it's going to happen or not. But look, if it happens, that's a huge problem for all of us.

Potential Risks Ahead

A thousand percent, we're on the same page and interest rates could go negative and we would still be fucked because we're in a recession. So if a recession happens, that is not good. That is very not good. But assuming we've soft landed all of this volatility and stuff, and I don't head into a recession, which I'm going to be honest, like, I think a lot of people were calling for recession and at least on paper we didn't have a recession, then we'll hopefully be fine.

Navigating Uncertainty

But yeah, a recession would wreck all of what we're saying. That is correct. Yeah. I'm not, for the record, I'm not calling for anything specific. I'm just being the contrarian perhaps of the bullish sentiment just to be careful. Right. Everyone gets really excited. The hopium is high. Of course I'm excited as well. I'd love to see a bull run. I'm not wishing ill will on anyone, but there's just a lot more to macro than fed cuts equal bull run.

On Market Predictions and Interest Rates

That's all I'm saying. I think this is really what we're trying to say here. If the status quo remains, if we don't get world war three, if we don't have crazy black swan event, if we don't head into recession, if the status quo remains, I think fed interest rates cuts are extremely bullish for this asset class. But if any of these scenarios that I just said play out, you're right, this would absolutely wreck the crypto market. And I think the markets, macro, crypto everything are in major trouble if any of those events play out. So just to put that out there, definitely nothing's guaranteed. I cannot predict if we're going into world War three. I cannot predict if we're going into recession. I cannot predict if there's some crazy black swan event that's just a ticking time bomb that's going to explode in six months. I don't know any of those things.

Market Dynamics and Economic Events

But if the status quo remains, I think there's a very clear correlation between interest rates going down and this asset class going up again, subject to any of these events that I just described playing out, which would drastically change all of what I just said. Deal. Trevor, you want to add anything? Yeah, yeah, I would. I would disagree with Bugsy in some situations. So there could be a scenario where we are in a recession in, you know, meat space in the real world, but bitcoin goes up. I mean, we did kind of see that the past two years. And essentially it just means that more liquidity is coming into the space. So when interest rates go down, that means there's like more cash, you know, going around. It could mean that theres more inflation and that the cost of your groceries is going up higher and higher.

Liquidity and Asset Prices

But because theres more money supply, that means theres more liquidity going around. And if the liquidity comes into bitcoin, then prices are going to go up. So you could have scenarios where in the real world where theres a economic recession, but in the crypto world, the asset prices are going up just because the more the market cap of USD is going to stay fixed. But then inflation by printing money is causing the supply to go up. And therefore the price of bitcoin relative to USD is going up and could lead to tipping points. It could lead to more people choosing bitcoin as a medium of exchange, which would lead to the asset prices going up in general. Yeah.

Concerns Regarding Federal Interest Rate Cuts

And those are all fair points, I think. I would just say that fed cuts does not equal more money. Right. Banks are the ones that are issuing the loans. So if they find that it's a poor economic time, they won't issue loans regardless of the rate. So I don't think fed cuts equals more money. That's all I would say there. And I'm not calling for World War three, I'm not calling for blacks swan events. I'm just saying that obviously people get excited. We got a 50 bip rate cut. Why is that? Why would he cut that if we're not down to the 2% inflation target yet? Is there something internal that is not necessarily good and they're trying to turn around and fix that before something else fails? When they cut rates, it's not necessarily meaning that the economic situation is in a good state.

History and Economic Context

We could argue about this all day. So, I mean, do you have a period in history where the cut rates significantly and the markets didn't pump? Yeah, I literally just explained about the Great Depression, how interest rates were at record lows at the time. And other than the. Any period other than the Great Depression, I think the Great Depression is kind of an extreme. Yeah, I think the Great Depression is like, look, you can do anything and it's gonna try to counteract what is a terrible economy, and eventually you do counteract it. They just spent so much money that they got us out of it. But it's like, it's two forces fighting. And in that case, the equal and opposite force was just wrecking you, even if you did have it. So again, I don't think it's indic, I do think it's a pretty clear equation of you pull that lever and it's a force in the direction of good for our markets, but that can always be canceled out by Hezbollah and Hamas and Israel conflict, expanding to Iran, then expanding to the US, and all these things that can counteract easily what we're talking about.

Complications in Economic Predictions

But in general, that's the principle. And that's how that principle works. Yeah. I'm not arguing for World War three or black swan event. I'm just saying that interest rates cutting do not equal more money necessarily. There's a lot more moving parts. And I think a lot of people, I'm not claiming to be a macro economist here. I just think a lot of people say a lot of stuff online that may not be true, or they may not know the entire story of how money is created or how liquidity flows into a market and just blanket statement rate cut equal bull run, and that could harm a lot of people. So anyway, I don't want to argue anymore. I'm not. Yeah, but I hear you. I hear you.

Hedge Fund Strategies and Economic Decisions

But let's say you're a hedge fund. This is a literal thing that's happened over the last two years. There are literal hedge funds managing insane amounts of capital. And they just said, like the guy running the hedge fund just says, we're going to buy some bonds. That's what we're going to do for two years. And that actually happens. And they pull out of their positions like Eth. That's an actual phenomenon that plays out because it's kind of a no brainer. Like it's risk free capital is what it's called. And if the opportunity. It doesn't feel like, is there to be a little more risk on? And you have this really nice free money. Why not take the free money? Why not invest in the bonds? I'm telling you, the hedge funds have literally done that for two years.

Caution and Market Sentiment

I mean, we can. We can argue about this all day. I'm not. I'm not here to go too much in depth or waste too much time, but I would say be careful. And, you know, obviously people are excited about a bull run. I would just say it might be prolonged a little bit longer than people think. We might be in a downtrend, who knows? I am not a fortune teller, but I just wanted to speak my contrarian opinion. And obviously, I appreciate you guys. And if the bull run happens, I'm really excited about it, too. So I'm not here to short every fucking market down to zero. I'm just saying be careful.

Critical Views on Economic Theories

And a lot of people say things online that may not have the full story. And macroeconomic activity is a crazy topic that's very hard to pinpoint and. And have blanket statements for. So, anyway, thanks, guys. I mean, I will just say, like, look, I took a macro course in high school, the EP macro class. Like, I actually don't think macroeconomics is, like, that complicated. I think it is a series. It absolutely. I'm just. I'm just telling you my experience with macroeconomics. And it wasn't super complicated. It was not a hard class. It was not hard to get a five on that examined.

Personal Experiences and Economic Understanding

All I'm saying is it did seem, like, very logical how things worked in that class. I am not a world class economic expert as well. Disclaimer I took. I just explained to you guys my experience in macroeconomics. It was a high school course. I was like 16 or 17 or whatever. So I think I. Hopefully that disclaimer comes with the fact that you're talking to a guy named Leonidas on a ordinal show Twitter space, so don't go listen to the CNBC guys for the better advice. All I'm saying is the basic principles. I actually do like that they're very rational. It's why I like economics.

Debating Market Predictions

And, Bugsy, dude, I do appreciate that you come up and give contrarian views, and ultimately, I think that's very important. And I'm actually curious. If you had to pick the price of bitcoin not at the end of 2024, but the end of 2025, and if you have to pick your over under for a bet. So you could be wrong. It's okay, what would you pick? I'm curious what you would pick. End of 2025 bitcoin. I would love. I would love. Above one hundred k. I agree. I mean, inflation adjusted, we're super low.

Market Optimism and Reality Check

It's really unfortunate, but I think we're higher. I just think in the next few months, I don't know, I think we need a little bit of a cool down, but maybe I'm wrong. So, anyway, yeah, just remember we're a bunch of cartoon avatars talking about interest rates and macro. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you, Charlie. So just be careful when you're listening to people or. I like not even people in this space. Like, just people in general on Twitter, they love to state their opinion, including me. And, you know, we could all be wrong.

Contrarian Perspectives on Economic Trends

So, anyway, thanks, guys. I appreciate it. And, you know, it's not to be a contrarian, to just be a contrarian. It's just, you know, I see a lot of this bullish sentiment happening everywhere, and I see a lot of catalysts that could potentially knock us back down. And I always question, you know, why. Why are they cutting so fiercely with this 50 bps if everything's all a hunky dory, right? They don't just cut that much if things are good, especially when inflation is still higher than 2%. So, anyway, that's all I'd say.

Discussion on Economic Responsibility

I love how we're making progress with Charlie. He's got now a cat and it's BFB. He's still got the same PFP. He absolutely doesn't fit in on this stage. Oh, my gosh. I actually have. I have an update on this. I, I do anticipate changing my PfP soon. There is a. There's an artist working on something somewhere. yeah, I would love to be able to change it. Will it be a cartoon animal? Yes or no? Not animal.

Personal Profiles and Public Perception

just imagine a cartoon me. Wait, are you. Are you. Is Vlad. Is Vlad's girlfriend doing you a pepe? I didn't know she was an artist. Also, apparently he does have a girlfriend. You're the first person to control. I called it ding. Anything is better than Leonidas PFP, so whatever. Charlie, you good, dude? People fun me because I don't even have order. I talk about ordinals all day and my PFP isn't even ordinal, dude. Like, it's the worst.

Contention Over Digital Avatars and Identity

But you can be constantly. Sadly, you can't do a pizza ninja. Because then when you to. And Jan Ropenne here, it's kind of. Like a weird look all ninjas. It's just like, all right, is this the ninja show now? I mean, it is, but at the same time, you know? Yeah, but you got to choose something that's that. Like, I got to respect the. The grind. Not even just the OG PFP. Keep it on for five years. I like this shit.

Branding and Community Presence

yeah, look, I mean, dude, when you like your PFP, it's like, dude, I'm skull with red eyes and a purple hoodie. It's kind of what people know me by. Bill Bongo, you got a. You got a tilt, like, dude, can I help you out with Photoshop? Rotating your PFP to look up. Dude, it looks like you're still looking down at the charts. Like, we're going down. You're. You're proving bugs point here, dude, we can't be so bearish like this. We got to tilt it.

Calls for Optimistic Perspectives

Like, 20 degree change is all the difference, bro. It's all that. By the way, what is your. What is your PFP shooting? Is it shooting a flashlight into the sky? It's a gun. It looks like a flashlight. Gotcha. The european mine and the San Francisco mine struggle with it, but it's actually a gun. And it's also drinking and smoking. But wait, it's a water gun, right? Like the water gun? Like, no, we don't like the emoji that, of course, needed to be water gun, right?

Cultural Implications of Bitcoin Enthusiasm

No, no, get out of here with that. This is, this is Twitter now. This is eds. There is the culture on bitcoin of lots of people like to go shooting. There is definitely, like a ar 15 culture on bitcoin. Trevor, go ahead. Yeah, I want to say one more thing about the interest rate thing. One thing that people should think about as well is that most people define, or economists tend to define, inflation as the increase in price of goods and not the increase in the total supply of money.

Understanding Inflation and Economic Growth

The total supply of money only decreases if the government actually retires the USD, which they never do. They're just taking out of circulation temporarily, which can be helpful if, like, lending is getting, like, too crazy and too high risk. But generally, like, raising the industry just sort of reduces the growth in wealth. Like, prices of goods can go up when people become wealthier. Just like, if you travel around the world to, like, a poor country, like, a lot of things are cheaper there, right? Because the country's less wealthy. So I think interest rates in general being too high is pretty much a scam because it's just decreasing, like, the growth of GDP and wealth from lack of investment innovation.

The Effects of Monetary Policy

Yeah, we'll see. I think basically, dude, all the presidents, no matter what party they are, just like, press the spin button as hard as possible. They just can't help themselves and they get us into this situation. It's like, look, if they can just do this doge thing with Elon or whatever, it's like if the government can take seriously the idea of managing your balance sheet thoughtfully and just not spending money unless you have to, basically creating it as a very sacred thing. When you basically take your military and point it to the population and say, give us your taxes, that's precious money that's being transferred over, please spend it responsibly.

Calls for Fiscal Responsibility

That's all that people really want. I think we wouldn't have had to go through this past couple of year, crazy whip swallow, whipsaw type situation if these guys had just spent a little bit more responsibly. I don't, I don't get the, just need to absolutely push it to the absolute max with the spending. It's like, chill out with spending, you know, get spending under control a little bit more. I'm not saying you have to, like, you know, get rid of the national debt overnight or something like this, right? But at least don't be adding to it at the rate that we're adding to it.

The Risk of Inflation and Government Spending

It's dumb. It's dumb. It's like you're basically banking on AI saving the country or something. It's a terribly poor set of, like, you're playing russian roulette with our country. Like, do not do this, please. If only ever. That simple, though, right? Like, I mean, we are literally in a debt spiral where they can't even pay down the debt fast enough. That's not even possible at this point. And it's also really funny when people get these stimulus checks and then ape into bitcoin in 2020, 2021, and they were all like, yeah, free money.

Consequences of Economic Policies

This is awesome. And now we're like, we have the aftermath of that, the high interest rates to try and knock down inflation because of all the stimulus. And now people are like, what the heck? You got to spend the money properly. And how dare you spend so much, right? It's like, it's impossible to, like, they just can't do it. They're their government. They're going to, like, totally fuck themselves over eventually. Whether that takes another hundred years or 30 years, I have no idea.

The Future of Currency and Economic Stability

But, like, to ask a government to spend wisely is just a fool's errand. I just don't think that'll ever happen. Biden airdropped like 0.02 to all us holders. Leonidas dropped like 0.07, so he's got my vote. There you go. There you go. Can we imagine free money? Can we imagine a world where bitcoin is the standard? There's no free money from the government anymore. What would that look like from.

Bitcoin as a Solution to Economic Concerns

Well, that's why. That's why I buy bitcoin. I mean, I don't want the risk of my government. So I take money. I take my money and I put it somewhere that external to my home country or to any government at all. That's literally the point of bitcoin is to. Is like the risk. I don't want that risk of debt money. I want my own money that I can control and move myself and not ask permission, not say, hey, mister banker, I want to send $100,000 to Charlie.

The Importance of Self-Custody

I can just do it whenever I want, right? No, you cannot do that on Coinbase, by the way. So even if you have bitcoin on Coinbase, you can send it out. That's what's happening now. Well, then take your fucking money off Coinbase immediately. Like, what are you talking about here? I mean, you want to be another bank, or do you want to be your own bank? I mean, like, make a decision. Do you want to have bitcoin or do you want to have another permission?

Challenges of Cryptocurrency Ownership

Money? Like, I don't. Like, just get the fuck out of Coinbase. I mean, the end, right? Yeah, it's, you know, lots of people are getting wrecked because the self custody thing is sort of going out of the way right now. Like, nobody knows it anymore. So a lot of new and new people, like last week, I've heard two different people who got blocked from withdrawals from Coinbase. It's ridiculous. But I think it will be more of that anyway.

Market Sentiment and Regulatory Environment

Like, paper become more popular, only a few people will be able to own. Yeah, I advocate for acceleration, where, like, I actually want the government to freeze people's bank accounts for fun so that people can actually realize, holy shit, I need bitcoin. And that's the easiest way to orange pill someone, right? Like, you know, when your government's doing fine and not freezing your bank accounts and not fucking you over, people don't want or need bitcoin.

Understanding Global Economic Trends

But when your currency is inflating to infinity, like Argentina, and your government's fucking you over, you get orange pilled in 2 seconds, right? So I'm a huge advocate for self custody, and bitcoin has nothing to do with Coinbase. Right? If you're holding your money on Coinbase, you're no different than holding your money in a bank. So get that shit out of there and take ten minutes, take an hour. Learn how to control your own money, learn how to custody your own funds.

The Responsibility of Bitcoin Ownership

I think people need to realize that bitcoin is a responsibility to go up technology as well. You can't just, oh, someone stole my money. I want it back. That's not how it works with bitcoin. Right. People need to take responsibility over their own money, and people holding it in Coinbase are not doing that. But they will learn eventually if Coinbase is restricting withdrawals or whatever.

Challenges in Crypto Education

Right. Trial by fire is the easiest way to orange pill people because they get it immediately instead of the slow frog boil. Bugs, the accelerationist, I hear. Hell yeah, bugs. Do you like nfTs? I feel like over the past five years, the NFT group of people have been like the leader in pushing self custody. I'm being serious. I think they're the leader of self custody over BTC holders, over everything.

Self-Custody vs. NFTs

What do you feel about that? I like bitcoin assets. I don't like nfts. Nfts are not in your control. They can be 404 whenever the fuck they want to be. If you want something that's actually immutable, then come to bitcoin. If you want to hold bitcoin or hold a JPEG, I don't care. But, you know, you want immutability, you want something that nobody can take from you, then you have to take those steps to do so.

Coinbase and Control of Assets

Right? Yep, agreed. I will push back slightly on the Coinbase thing. I think it's like having BTC, but in Coinbase is like you're doing 50% of the job, but not the other 50% of like, going the full way. Right. Because ultimately, yes, somebody does still control the asset, but at least the asset that you're giving them custody over isn't us dollar. Right. It's worse when you're in a bank, because not only is your bank holding your money, but the money is also being inflated by a government who, like, is irresponsible.

Pros and Cons of Holding Bitcoin.

So, like, BTC and Coinbase, I would say, is significantly better. But it's obviously not the same as BTC self custody, which is like the singular solution to a lot of problems in our world. Yeah, 100%. And I think. I think people are going to learn that the hard way, especially with ETF's as well. Again, I'm not saying in a year, things are going to go tits up. But I think in the next 30, 50 years when Fiat's crumbling and all you can do is redeem a fiat shitcoin that's worth nothing for your bitcoin ETF, people are going to get wrecked and they're not going to have any bitcoin, and they're going to be left holding the bags of this paper IOU money.

Long-Term Perspectives on Self-Custody

so, you know, I, I'm a huge advocate for self custody. It's my full time job. So, yeah, I appreciate the realistic timeframe too, because I think we kind of start to sound like these, like there's people in climate change that predict like, the world ends in five years. Every five years they say this. And it's like, the reality is there's probably, like, you know, there's probably is some like, you know, effect of like the polarized caps melting and stuff and all this.

Addressing Global Economic Challenges

And like, you know, the sun then reflecting less, getting reflected less off the earth that heats the globe and all this. Like, there probably are like, significant things about this. It's just that we have this tendency to, like, create these doom and gloom, like, very short term timeframe things because I guess it's what gets people to pay attention. The reality, these are like decades and decades long stuff, right? And with bitcoin or for example, with our national debt, you can actually look at our debt to GDP ratio in the US.

Perspective on Global Economic Health

We're actually relative to a lot of countries out there doing really good. It's why people are laughing. It's why people are so excited to buy our debt, right? Because there are countries that have terrible debt to GDP ratios even worse than ours. And I would say ours is already terrible. So all of that to say it's all, we live in this global economy now. And this is what's kind of the scariest part, is that whereas prior, in the prior century, it's all isolated to one country, it's like Japan can have a recession and it doesn't really affect everyone else.

Interconnected Economies and Global Impacts

I'm pretty sure we're heading into this just very interconnected state of the economy where you just have global recessions. And that is a super scary thought. And I'm not sure exactly what that even looks like, but I'm just generally concerned about a lot of countries. A lot of these countries, it's not just the US. Are you spending way too much money? And just this. They are, they're further down that debt spiral than the US is. And I think the US, like, I think it's like, it is probably decades long debt spiral playing out.

Reflections on Debt and Future Thinking

But like, in the grand scheme of things, a few decades is actually a very short period of time. We're all going to have to live through that. We need to be responsible, not just about the next four years or something, but the next 40 years. I think that's very important. And I think banking on growth to be so incredible with AI and stuff, and banking on bitcoin to save the US, these are really dumb, really dumb policies. It's like, get your shit in order and then, yeah, if those things play out great, you're going to extra crush it.

Leadership and Economic Policies

But banking on these things to save your country is like truly, absolutely dumb. Leadership on every level and every party. Or, go ahead, Bugsy, go ahead. Say the. Saying that the US dollar is the cleanest shirt in the laundry pile, right? There's a reason why it's the Federal Reserve or not federal, the global reserve currency, basically. It'll likely be the last to go. And I'm with you, I don't know, a timeline. I have no idea. I'm not one of those shock scare people, right? I'm not saying it's going to happen tomorrow, but it will happen eventually.

Historical Context of Currency Failures

Historically, all fiat currencies have failed, and the US dollar is no exception, in my opinion. And if you're holding money on Coinbase or an ETF, you're still going to get fucked. You're not going to have that bitcoin in your own custody, and you're likely going to go down with the ship, you know, hold your bitcoin in cold storage, ideally, or wherever where you can send it permissionlessly. That's the whole point of bitcoin. And, you know, people are slowly realizing that over time.

The Urgency for Financial Education

But some people may just be too late to the party and get wrecked, so plan accordingly. That is also very regional, because if you're in the US, you could say, yeah, maybe we have 20 years before people who are custodied by Coinbase could get fucked. But if you're in Europe, that's not the case. It's like, it's right now. Because in Europe, I don't know if you guys know, like, if you have having $5,000 in cash in Europe, it's almost like you. You're a criminal.

Financial Behaviors in Different Regions

The way they're going to look at you at the airport or whatever they see with cash, even at the store, to pay in cash, like 500 something, and you try to pay in cash, they were like, oh, my gosh, this guy's probably selling drugs or something. So if that is the approach on cash on bitcoin, it's going to be very soon because now, you know, there's almost no exchange there operating without any KYC already. And crypto exchanges in Europe operate pretty much like a bank.

Banking Regulations and Accessibility

Almost. The worst case also is that you transfer money from your bank account to coinbase or whatever your bank account get frozen. So I think it depends on where you are. In some areas of the world, it's more worse. In the US, it's also kind of difficult. But there are many other countries outside where like, you know, we don't have these kind of problems of accessing bitcoin. And P two P markets are still strong and, you know, you can get away without a lot of KYC at all, for sure.

Government Regulation and Bitcoin Adoption

And, you know, it's really unfortunate, but, you know, the governments are just kind of chilling with bitcoin right now. But, you know, China's banned bitcoin like 16 umph times. You know, there will be a phase where they. And it's the. And then they fight you phase where, you know, they're desperate, they're in a corner. They got, they got a few bruises to the face. The US dollar is coming down and they're going to do everything they can to stop you from transacting in bitcoin.

Market Dynamics in China and Beyond

So that's the question is, like, why are there so many, like, chinese people, like, trading cryptos, right? It's like, yeah. The government and everything. But, but like, there. There are people doing this and it's legal. It's. It is legal. I mean, the legal part is very complicated. Right. It's like you can say, oh, the government do something, but then, like, government, how they do something and how they do something, it's really like a complicated process.

Discussion on Chinese Traders

But, you know, a million, like, people like doing this, right? You sound Chinese yourself. Do you perhaps know why most Chinese people are trading. I can sound like Chinese or American. That doesn't matter, all right? We're not getting down a rabbit hole speculating people's. Yeah, yeah. And I do want to know, though, what is the. What is your. Yeah, what. What is your take you on the current regulation in China? Like, my understanding is that it's the businesses that are getting shut down. They don't care. Yeah, I sound like Chinese, but I'm American.

Policies and Regulations in China

Well, you were talking about. You were talking about China's policy, so I thought you might. No, not me. Not me. Like somebody else. Right. I'm just responding. I was just responding. Right. Yeah. I grew up in China, but I'm immigrant, and then I immigrate to. No, totally. And that's totally great. I just. Back to the topic here. We were talking about the Chinese policies in relation to crypto, and my understanding is that they're harsh on more of the business side. They won't let the businesses, the exchanges operate inside of China, but they don't care too much about the population actually trading and being degens. That's my understanding.

Current State of Crypto Trading

The current state. I don't. I didn't know, you know, you were talking about this topic. If you knew anything other than that. If not, it's no worries. We can. We can. Yeah. I don't have. I don't have any other insights. It's just like anybody else. Right. Like, I'm. I'm also, like, reading. Right. I'm also, like, focusing on crypto, on news and finance and, like, everybody. Everybody else. Right. And the thing is, like, it's a. Yeah, and then, like, we are waiting, right? We're waiting. Like, we're waiting, like, here. That's the same. Just like, what China is, like, doing.

General Observations and Personal Experiences

Yeah, everybody's waiting. Donga was. No, I was gonna shit on boxing. He just left. I noticed that. I wanted to jump in because you've. Been saying great things about him, but. I have bad things to say because he's. He loves just attacking projects when they're down, when the market eats down, everything. Is red, everything's suffering. He takes time out of his day. To find me in a hot top celebrating Billy. And he posts that, saying that, you know, we use them as sets of. Liquidity while we are actually in the. Trenches, is just trying to make it. So I wanted to make that point. He's always saying, no, listen to anybody.

Reflections on Online Apologies and Market Dynamics

But I think it's fairly known, like, bugs, he definitely likes to be a little aggressive on the timeline, I think. I think bugs, he's, like, flooded Trevor before. He's flooded me before. Like, I think that's just bugsy, bro. I wouldn't read too much. Can I say something about dog? I know that you. I heard that you said that we're not talking. Oh, Bugs is back. Bugs is back. Yeah. I apologize. I apologize. That's inevitable. I apologize. I want to hear Bugsy respond. I've been waiting. Like. I do want to hear Bugsy respond to Bongo, and I promise we'll get to you next.

Discussion of Community Dynamics

Yeah, no, for the record, I deleted that post and apologize just for the record, Bongo. I even talked to Josh and said, hey, man, you know, what I said was. Was wrong, and it was a little bit too harsh. So I agree. I can be a little harsh sometimes. But I did delete that post and I apologize. And I said, hey, you know, as a little. I was looking for it. Yeah, that's right. So, anyway, I probably have a screenshot. Somewhere, and I'm gonna be using it today to dunk on you. You deserve it. But, yeah, that's another lesson. There's people way too bullish and I taking you in the wrong direction.

Reflections on Personal Responsibility

There's people too bearish making you sell that the bottom. So. I'm not making anyone sell. For the record, I do not condone any buying or selling of any assets. That's up to you. It's a personal decision. I'm not here to shit on you, Bongo. So, anyway, I think you owe me. A week with the glasses. Put them on. No, rocket, bro, the guy. Look, I don't know the context of this situation, but, Bugs, you did just come up here and gave you what seemed like a genuine apology. I don't think you can ask for too much more than that, bro, but, yeah. Hope you guys sort out you. Whatever.

End of Discussion and Summary

That's you. I take an eye for an eye, Leo. Good for you. If you forgive him. But that's. There's a quote about that. Definitely a quote about that. Anyway, Bongo, you know, you're a good guy. It's fine. It's all good. But, yeah, do what you want. Thanks, guys, for having me. I've had no cheers. All right. Appreciate you, Bugsy. Bongo, thank you for spicing up our space today. Okay, now. Ooh. Thank you for being patient. I'm gonna send it back over to you. Well, how's it going? What's up?