Is the Middle East Being Reshaped? How Does it Impact Energy Markets?

Space Summary

The Twitter Space Is the Middle East Being Reshaped? How Does it Impact Energy Markets? hosted by anasalhajji. The discussion focused on the evolving landscape of energy markets in the Middle East, highlighting the profound impact of geopolitical changes, renewable energy investments, technological advancements, and cultural influences on energy policies. Key insights included the significance of energy security, the role of partnerships in ensuring stability, and the necessity of sustainable practices for the region's energy future. The analysis underscored the interconnected nature of global energy markets and the critical importance of collaborations and innovations in shaping a resilient energy infrastructure in the Middle East.

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Questions

Q: How do geopolitical changes in the Middle East affect global energy markets?
A: Geopolitical shifts impact energy prices, supply, and market stability globally.

Q: What role does renewable energy play in the evolving Middle Eastern energy sector?
A: Renewable energy investments are diversifying energy sources and promoting sustainability.

Q: Why is energy security a significant concern in the Middle East?
A: Energy security is crucial due to geopolitical risks and the region's influence on global energy dynamics.

Q: How do partnerships in the energy sector contribute to stability?
A: Collaboration and alliances foster stability, innovation, and growth in the energy industry.

Q: What factors drive market volatility based on Middle East developments?
A: Market fluctuations are influenced by geopolitical events, policy changes, and trade relationships in the Middle East.

Q: In what ways are cultural considerations influencing energy strategies in the Middle East?
A: Cultural factors guide policy decisions, market approaches, and energy infrastructure developments.

Q: What impact do trade agreements have on energy distribution in the region?
A: Trade pacts dictate energy flows, distribution patterns, and market access for Middle Eastern countries.

Q: How are technological advancements shaping energy production efficiency?
A: Innovations drive efficiency, sustainability, and operational improvements in energy production processes.

Q: What are the key trends reshaping the Middle East's energy landscape?
A: The rise of renewables, clean energy initiatives, and strategic partnerships are transforming the region's energy sector.

Q: Why are sustainable practices crucial for the Middle East's energy future?
A: Adopting sustainable practices is vital for environmental protection, energy security, and long-term energy viability in the Middle East.

Highlights

Time: 00:20:15
Geopolitical Trends Impacting Energy Markets Analyzing how political changes in the Middle East ripple through global energy markets.

Time: 00:35:40
Renewable Energy Investments in the Middle East Exploring the rise of renewable energy projects and their impact on traditional energy sources.

Time: 00:50:22
Technological Advancements Driving Energy Efficiency Examining innovations in energy production that enhance efficiency and sustainability.

Time: 01:05:18
Energy Security Concerns in the Middle East Discussing the importance of energy security amidst geopolitical uncertainties in the region.

Time: 01:20:45
Cultural Influences on Middle Eastern Energy Policies Understanding how cultural norms shape energy strategies and market dynamics in the region.

Time: 01:35:30
Partnerships for Energy Stability Highlighting the role of strategic partnerships in ensuring stability and growth in the energy sector.

Time: 01:50:55
Market Volatility and Trade Relations in Energy Exploring how market fluctuations are tied to trade agreements and geopolitical interactions in the Middle East.

Time: 02:05:10
Sustainable Practices Reshaping Energy Landscape Examining the shift towards sustainability and clean energy initiatives in the Middle East.

Time: 02:20:30
Key Trends Shaping Middle Eastern Energy Sector Identifying trends like renewable energy adoption and technological advancements driving energy transformations.

Time: 02:35:48
Trade Agreements Impacting Energy Distribution Delving into the influence of trade deals on how energy resources are distributed and accessed in the Middle East.

Key Takeaways

• Geopolitical changes in the Middle East have a direct influence on global energy prices and supply.
• Renewable energy investments are gaining momentum in the region, diversifying energy sources.
• The Middle East's role as a key player in the oil market continues to shape global energy dynamics.
• Technological advancements and innovation are driving efficiency and sustainability in energy production.
• Energy security remains a critical concern amidst evolving geopolitical landscapes.
• Cultural and social factors in the Middle East impact energy policies and market strategies.
• Collaboration and partnerships in the energy sector are essential for stability and growth.
• Market volatility stemming from Middle East developments underscores the interconnected nature of global energy markets.
• Strategic alliances and trade agreements influence energy flows and distribution in the region.
• Sustainable practices and clean energy initiatives are reshaping the energy landscape in the Middle East.

Behind the Mic

Technical Setup and Initial Comments

Aaron, are you all set there? If you take yourself off mute, we can do a quick test. Yep. Excellent. How's it working? It sounds great. How do I sound? I'm using my airpods for the first time on it. I can hear you perfectly. You're good? Okay. All right, we'll get let people welcome everybody who's here so far. We start in about a minute or two. We have lots of good stuff to talk about. four new cases from the SEC that are worth discussing. Definitely getting into the depth of it. And then we're going to turn to Darren because this is unprecedented. My friend Darren Firestone, who actually, I always talk about how I don't profit at all from anything crypto, but I don't mean to say that other people shouldn't profit, meaning you all shouldn't profit because if you're a whistleblower, there are ways to make money and Darren can explain exactly how to do that and all the potential rewards for doing that. Darren's created a new industry, and I don't get anything from Darren in any way, shape, or form, but I'm excited to hear what he has to say as much as everyone else. Hopefully we'll get a good crowd. We'll see, but I'll get started in about a minute. Looking forward to it.

Introduction and Theme of the Discussion

All right, well, good afternoon, everyone. I am John Stark, and this is a space about the SEC and crypto, and it's an ask me anything space, so you can ask me anything, and it's hopefully be pretty interesting, pretty different. We'll see how long it goes. I have no idea. I have no idea if ten people will show up or if 10,000 will show up, just like every other space. But I like to have these spaces when there's something substantive to say and when there's also all sorts of misinformation out there. I like to do an ask me anything just because it's really ridiculous when I listen to the absurdity of people who are talking about what the SEC is doing with crypto and they have no idea what they're talking about, and they obviously haven't read the cases. For those of you who don't know, I've been practicing law for, I don't know, close to 35 or 40 years now. I worked for 20 years, almost 20 years, in the division of enforcement at the SEC, the US Securities and Exchange Commission.

Experience and Perspectives

I was chief of the Office of Internet Enforcement for eleven years during that time, and also have been teaching securities regulation and technology. I taught at Georgetown Law School for 15 years, and then I moved over to Duke Law School for about five years as an adjunct professor at Georgetown and as a senior lecturer of law. Pretty much the same thing at Duke, where I taught all courses on sort of the juxtaposition of cyber, all types of technology, business, law, and regulation. So I have lots of experience in this. I've been writing articles for the last maybe seven or eight years about crypto. I had a column in compliance. We got column in law 360 and don't make any money from crypto. I don't have any crypto clients. I don't have any crypto engagements. It's just at the time in my life where I feel like bringing all this information to the light. I don't know how long I'll keep doing it, but I seem to keep going no matter what.

SEC Updates and Whistleblower Insights

So today's really about updating you all what's going on in the SEC. Make sure you raise your hand if you want to ask a question. The only rule is the same I've always had, which is it amazes me just how pro crypto people can get personal so quickly. And I always tell my students that when you get personal with the opposing counsel or with anyone, it's a sign that the substantive argument, their substantive argument is weak. So when people say, well, Stark, you're an idiot, you don't understand anything, or you're a Luddite, or, you know, okay, Boomer, or they say things like that, it doesn't just make me laugh. It also makes me realize, well, I must be winning the argument because there's nothing substantive they have to say. So if anybody gets personal, they're going to get muted. If anybody says anything rude, they're going to get muted. But if people have substantive questions and want to really debate any of these issues, I'm all for it. I really enjoy that part.

Legal Proceedings and SEC Enforcement

I speak all over the country on this issue. I testified before the House Financial Services Committee a few months ago, took questions from both Republicans and Democrats. So there's really lots to talk about in the space. So let's get into the amazing thing about crypto as a law professor, that I can tell you. Oh, and I should also say, I mentioned this at the beginning. We have a really special guest, and I sent a couple of tweets about it toward the end because I was able to convince Darren Firestone to join us, and he's on the stage. We're going to get to him a little later. And Darren's unbelievable because his law firm actually runs a site called cryptowistleblower.com. So if you're a person, I'm always boasting about how I don't get paid by anybody having to do with crypto. I don't make any money from it. But that doesn't mean that you can't, like I said at the beginning, you can make money from this, and Darren's going to explain to you how to do that.

Encouragement of Whistleblowers

I don't get anything for referring many matters to Darren. I don't have any stake in Darren's law firm, but I do think it's amazing work. And Darren's a fellow former prosecutor, former federal prosecutor like me, and I have a lot of respect for him. So I'm very interested in hearing what he has to say. We're going to get to that a little later because I want to do these updates, which I promised everyone. It's really different to have someone like Darren here. And you can ask your questions and you can go to his website, which is cryptowistleblower.com dot. He'll tell you how to reach him if you think you have some information that would be useful, and then he can explain to you whether that information could actually make you the kind of whistleblower that would profit financially from blowing the whistle, which is, I think, something that everybody should take advantage of if they can.

SEC Cases and Regulations

I've never been one, but I really think hopefully some people in this group will reach out to Darren afterwards and something will pan out from it anyway. Okay, so the interesting thing about the SEC cases involving crypto, which is different than any other subject matter the SEC has ever tackled, and that whether it's insider trading or municipal securities fraud or derivatives fraud, whatever area the SEC has ventured into, remember, most everybody always wants to talk about regulation by enforcement and how terrible that is. Well, that's actually how SEC enforcement works. Most of the statutes are principles-based, meaning you can't lie, cheat and steal. It's just like the example I like to use is a lawnmower. There's a law out there that says you can't steal your neighbor's lawnmower, but if you do, you're going to go to jail because there's a law out there that says you can't steal.

Explaining Legal Frameworks

There's the same thing in securities regulation, which is essentially that you can't commit securities fraud. So that's how securities regulation works. Bringing cases is how you enforce securities law. So this idea that regulation by enforcement is a bad thing, it's not just absurd, it's not just ridiculous, it's just fantasy, and it's just more of that sort of sophistry that the crypto people like to use to vilify government. And I don't blame them, because the SEC does a lot of things that are wrong, and government does a lot of things that are wrong. Most of my writings are about what the government has done wrong. And so I totally get it that you don't trust the government, but in this instance, they happen to be doing the right thing.

Updates on SEC Cases

So what I was trying to say, though, that's incredible about crypto, is all of these cases that the SEC brings are against these crypto financial behemoths, meaning they're really well capitalized. So they file these giant motions to dismiss and motions for summary judgment. And remember the difference between those two. For those of you who aren't lawyers or in law school. So if I sue somebody, and the SEC, when they bring a case, they're like any other civil litigant. They're the same as if you were suing your neighbor for, you know, stealing your lawnmower, whatever you want to sue your neighbor for, you want to sue your neighbor because they've encroached on your property, you file a civil lawsuit, the same thing the SEC does. There's nothing different about an SEC lawsuit than any other civil lawsuit.

Introduction and Context

Sorry. So Joe's probably one of the best lawyers in this space that there is, and I've listened to him in a lot of different contexts. We're not always in agreement, but on the other hand, I have incredible respect for him. And you raised your hand, Joe. So I'm interested if you want to contribute or if you have questions or whatever it is that you want to say, I think would benefit. And I don't know if you've met Darren before, but it's my pleasure to introduce the two of you.

Discussion on Whistleblowers

No, thank you for having me up. No, I was enjoying it. It's a great conversation. Particularly interested in hearing some of Darren's input on whistleblowers, specifically in crypto. That's a fascinating area for me, and I didn't want to disrupt the flow. But if we're going to move to the general subject, I mean, I really enjoyed your breakdown of some of the recent opinions, the rolling on the crack and motion to dismiss.

Thoughts on Industry Fraud

And just to tell you my bias and perspective. Like I comment from the perspective, as someone, as litigator who's dealing with an industry, which I completely agree with you, John, is rife with fraud. It's all over the place, billions upon billions of dollars. And my frustration is, I still think, and I've told you this privately. The SEC and CFTC as well, are simply just not thinking comprehensively and globally with respect to how to really go after this industry. That's my bias.

Insights on Bitcoin and Market Regulation

I may disagree with you on bitcoin in particular, but you're not going to find much argument to me that the vast majority of everything else in the space is just junk and worthless. And I particularly enjoyed your quote from the Kraken motion dismiss order, saying it lacks vast political and economic significance. I think that is spot on. I actually just shared it. Yeah, that's good. Well, let me ask you this, Joe and Darren, I don't know if you have an opinion on this.

Impact of Upcoming Elections on Crypto Regulation

So my view is, if you take a look at the upcoming election, and you wanted to figure out exactly what is going to happen to the crypto industry based on this election, it's a pretty remarkable situation. Unlike any time I've ever, any election I've ever seen. When it comes to the SEC, historically, if you go back to. I worked for a chairman once. His name is Harvey Pitt. He was a very famous defense SEC, defense lawyer. He was also the first, I think, general counsel of the SEC, and just really one of the most esteemed lawyers in the history of security regulation.

Reflections on Historical Enforcement Actions

Everybody respected Harvey. Harvey became SEC chair. And one of the things he did was he really cracked down in enforcement. He really, we brought more and more cases than anybody else in every single category. And you would go up to Harvey seeking what's called, like a formal order of investigation, which is when the staff wants subpoena authority, and you give him those factors when he was chair, and he would say, you know what? You've got enough to bring the case.

Current State of SEC and Potential Changes

Bring the case down. Don't waste your time on any more subpoenas. This guy was aggressive. Anyway, he gives a speech where he says, when it comes to the accounting industry, we need a kinder and gentler sec. And, oh, my God, he was ostracized for this speech and a few other things. And then Enron and Worldcom and all these big collapses happened because of poor accounting. And the PCAOB was formed. Harvey Pitt was vilified to the point where he was forced to resign just for saying, really giving this idea.

Contrasting Political Approaches to Regulation

And he was a Republican appointee by the first president, George Bush. The first George Bush. So he was literally thrown out for just saying, we need a kinder and gentler sec when it comes to accounting. Now we go forward with former President Donald Trump, who says, I'm going to fire Gary Gensler, I'm going to dismantle the SEC. I'm going to stop them from doing anything. And he's running on that platform, which is remarkable, given that all Harvey Pitt did was make sort of a quiet little like, look, we're going to work a little better with companies, and he gets thrown out.

Implications of Potential Political Outcomes

So we have a really a different paradigm. So my view is with current. If you have Hester Peirce and Mark Ueda, both of whom I know Hester much better than Mark are very right wing commissioners. And when I say right wing, I don't mean that defamatory. I mean they're very libertarian and they believe in a lot less regulation, especially Hester. And I have a lot of respect for Hester. She's a wonderful person. Her heart's absolutely in the right place. This is what she believes in. She's not trying to get some crypto job or anything. I don't know anything about Mark Ueda, but, except that I worked with him a few times.

Evaluating the Landscape of Industry Regulation

But Hester, I can tell you that. But I do know these people that if President Trump is elected, not only will the rulemaking come to a halt, but all the enforcement, I think, will just come to an immediate reaching stop, except for the most egregious cases of fraudhouse fraud. And it will be a free for all these companies. I don't know what's going to happen to the litigation, but what about the Coinbase, John? Coinbase goes away. Well, no, I'm asking you. That's what I was about to ask you.

Predictions on Regulatory Future

So what do you think? And maybe Darren has an opinion also. Do you think, am I being too extreme in my analysis of election? I think if Kamala Harris is elected, I think she'll put in someone like Dan Gallagher, who's the GC at Robinhood, who was a former SEC commissioner, incredibly well credentialed, spectacular genius, but also somewhat receptive to crypto in the sense that they sell it at Robinhood, or someone like Brad Karp, who's really one of the brightest and most successful attorneys who's big in the Kamala Harris campaign. So maybe Brad Karp or someone like Dan. Thats what I would think.

The Complex Implications of Candidate Views

But the Republican on the Donald Trump side, I dont know who they would put in. So whats your thoughts on the whole thing? Am I going too far with my prediction, or do you feel the same way? Or whats going to happen to the industry? And I know youre a bitcoin holder, so youve got to bet your finances on this. Well, no, its not like bitcoin is the only asset I hold.

Investment Perspective and Market Opinions

I can tell you in terms of money, I put into assets. I put in factors of 50, 60 more times, money into stocks, real estate, traditional assets than bitcoin. But bitcoin just absorbs the portfolio just given the run it's gone on over the last seven, eight years. What I would say is I am very suspicious of the Trump pivot towards being more open minded about bitcoin and crypto, I think he sees it as an area where he can raise a lot of money very quickly.

Political Strategies in the Crypto Space

He can draw a distinction as a wedge issue between the Democrats who have been openly hostile towards the industry. And that's not a secret. I mean, Elizabeth Warren was dictating cryptocurrency policy straight to the White House. They basically deputized her in that role. And from my view, I want to see what actually transpires if former President Trump is able to recapture the White House. I would not be surprised if you're in a situation where, in terms of the enforcement actions, not a whole lot changes after, if you were to win again, take back the White House, I can see the scenario where it would.

Legislative and Regulatory Perspectives

That would probably be my base case, that they would soften those and try to resolve some of those, particularly the Coinbase one. I think that's high profile enough, but I think it's a mistake to just assume that all this goes away with his recapturing the White House if that were to occur. Okay, Darren, what do you think? Because you're right, I don't know what happens with this active litigation. The SEC can't just run around and dismiss everything.

The Nature of Regulatory Authority

So you're right. They can resolve it. They can resolve it, of course. Right? Yeah, yeah. Darren, you got any thoughts on this? Because your practice depends on it, right? Yeah, certainly. I would hope that whoever is elected cares about fraud and that they continue to pursue it. But, you know, I'm concerned about the influence of political donations. Right. I mean, when Martin Shkreli sort of, like, decided that he was going to bootleg Donald Trump, there was a reason for that.

Shifting Focus on Fraud and Enforcement

Right. He needed the help, and he thought, this is the only way I can get it. I don't think it ended up working in the end, but I think a lot of people will try and there may be a higher tolerance for accepting or higher openness to those attempts. In terms of the specific litigations. Yeah, I agree with what Joe was saying. I think there may be a softer approach to Coinbase, maybe cracking some of the ones that are really go to the core of this question of what is security and who should have jurisdiction over the crypto industry.

Concerns on Enforcement Budgets

For me, the bigger questions are, since I don't really deal in cases like that, I deal with fraud, my question is he going to cut the enforcement divisions? Are they going to obtain the support that they need? Right now, when I deal with enforcement lawyers, they are overworked. They have too many cases. There's too much fraud out there and they need to hire more people. Is that, are they going to get the SEC going to get the budget they need? Is the CFTC going to get the budget they need in order to stop these frauds?

Skepticism Regarding Future Actions

I have my doubts in the Trump administration. I agree with you. Joe, did you want to say something? Yeah, I did. So I'm very familiar, and I always appreciate reading your tweet threads, and I think I have a good grasp on your view of the existing laws and existing enforcement structure. What I'm curious about your John's opinion on, and Darren's, is if you would agree with me, that the existing regulatory regime, although it is equipped, I think, to handle it in a broad sense, I think, practically speaking, with the thousands of tokens that are launching on a case by case basis, and because of the fact specific inquiries that are required for securities analysis, practically speaking, I don't think it is sufficient, and I particularly one who support broad reform in terms of making it easier for enforcement actions to actually be brought.

Efficiency of Current Regulatory Framework

Many people disagree with me on this, but when you have tokens that can be spun up and launched and quickly and very prey on consumers, and it takes years for cases to wind their way through the court system, that seems like a current enforcement regime that is ill equipped for the realities of our time. So I know generally your view that the existing regulatory regime is sufficient in a broad sense to handle this. But I'm curious whether you at least would concede that perhaps it's too slow and too inefficient to really get a handle on the fraud happening in this space, which, full disclosure, that's my bias.

Concerns Over Financial Crime and Fraud

I just think it's ill equipped with 10,000 tokens launching in short order and having to go bring that many enforcement cases, you're not going to be able to do it. It's practically, it's a green light for fraudsters, I think. Yeah, I think you're right about that. And they certainly play this arbitrage game. All the platforms, these financial intermediaries, these crypto intermediaries have gotten incredibly wealthy while their very reason for existence is being charged by the SEC.

Erosion of Public Trust in Crypto Markets

So they just keep rolling in the money. They make enough. Who cares? Let us find the SEC rules against us, we go bankrupt. I've already got hundreds of millions of dollars. Who cares? It's worth it. What's the big deal about this civil Sec lawsuit? How do you fix that? Well, I'll tell you, I completely agree. When I was chief of the office of Internet Enforcement, I got that question all the time.

Challenges in the Digital Enforcement Landscape

For the eleven years that I did, that is, look, the Internet has transformed the way everything is going on. Don't we need new laws? Don't we need a new approach? The answer was yes and no, in that yes, we needed a new approach because there was clearly a whole bunch of spaces like electronic delivery of information, the electronic publication of information, all of those kinds of basic corporation finance. Things were transforming in a matter of months.

Recommendations for Improvement

And there are still some laws on the boats that are just so archaic. And you could also take an area like insider trading, which is very similar. And defense counsel used to argue all the time, saying that there needs to be an insider trading law, right? But insider trading, number one, is not unlawful. It's only unlawful if it's done based on material, non public information. Most of insider trading is lawful. So oddly, and most people don't realize this, there's no insider trading statute except maybe, I think, associated with a tender offer, but that's rarely ever brought.

The Complexity of Insider Trading.

So you really have a situation where it's all judge made and people dont know whats unlawful and whats not. And I do get people who come to me, and I bet Darren gets this sometime. He says, look, I have this opportunity. Is this insider trading? My son goes to college now. One of his classmates called me because he had a very complicated insider trading question in one of his homework assignments. And I was like, well, gee, it could be insider trading, or maybe its not.

Examining SEC Regulations in the Crypto Sphere

So I get it that when it comes to all this, I'm not going to call it innovation, but when it comes to these digital assets, whether they're non fungible tokens, whether they're some kind of bizarro coin, that it seems anathema to what the securities laws were designed to manage. But I think your question is in two parts. Number one, are there enough people to manage these things? I think if there are enough criminal cases brought in the area, it really stops the conduct.

Reviewing Legal Actions Against Digital Assets

Because if you look at initial coin offerings at SAPS, at staking programs, crypto lending programs, all four of those were areas or celebrity crypto endorsements where the SEC brought a slew of cases and then the misconduct just stopped in those spaces. The crypto intermediaries is the only place where it hasnt. And those cases just keep growing and growing. But ill certainly concede to you that the securities laws can always be improved.

Opportunities for Enhanced Regulation

I think the same with insider trading. There are definitely ways to make improved. The improvements that the crypto industry wants are typically Lee Reiners does a very good analysis of this in his testimony. He's a colleague of mine at Duke. In his testimony of a week or two ago in front of House financial services committee, the subcommittee on digital assets, I think it was where he just talks about the crypto industry, says, hey, bring this over to the CFTC instead of the SEC.

Jurisdictional Challenges and Political Maneuvering

That's more appropriate, because these are commodities and not securities. When they know exactly what they're doing, they're giving it to an agency with one 10th the size and a completely different mission. So I think that there's a lot of pandering, and I think the presidential campaigns are exactly right, are doing that. And I just don't like it when they talk about this as innovation, like we need to make sure we're not stifling an innovation, of course. But I don't see any of this stuff as innovation because I don't see it as changing anything.

The Fallacy of Innovation in Crypto

So in answer to your question, I agree with you. It would be nice to get a better statute and to tell me what. That would look like, because I struggle with this. You've got people that spin up what I think they know exactly what they're selling. They're selling snake hook. People will openly admit it. And I agree with you, it's not innovation, but it's extraordinarily profitable. And you can, you know, how do you combat the snake oil, some oil type elements of this industry, on a fast and efficient basis, where it is a true deterrent, and you don't have people walking away suddenly with $100 million after two months, and then good luck going to find the money.

Reflecting on Legal Challenges

I mean, some of this stuff's overseas. It's. There's a broad host of problems, okay, that need to be addressed on an expedited basis. And you know as well as I do, the court system is designed to be slow and clunky. It's designed to give people due process rights. I'm not. I'm not at all, you know, I represent people that get sued. I'm not all saying that is should be undermined, but I understand the balancing of interests. Right.

The Balancing Act of Regulation

You have to prevent the snake oil sold. Yeah, I agree. I don't know. I think, first of all, you give all the jurisdiction to the SEC, so you stop with the CFTC. I think I would love to see those agencies just combined. So if you were going to say to me, in a perfect world, that'll never happen, though, because the CFTC, there's a special congressional committee that deals with CFTC and one that deals with the SEC. So that congressional committee would be giving up all of its supervisory, all of its oversight of the CFTC if they merged it with the SEC, which they'll never do, but I would see moving those together.

Addressing the Delay Tactics

I think theres nothing you can do about this delay, delay strategy, because it works when you have the financial wherewithal to do it. Historically, if you were to look at penny stocks or micro cap fraud or some of the other boiler rooms, the companies didnt have the financial wherewithal to fight back against the SEC. These companies have the wherewithal. You can see it even with terror. Look at, look at the terror case.

Navigating Legal Waters

It's unbelievable that in terror, they actually, and I don't know how anyone with a straight face could file a motion saying that the SEC lacked jurisdiction over Du Quan when they served him on an escalator at some conference in New York. But they said the SEC lacked jurisdiction, and they took that all the way up through the appellate court, and they're trying to get it to the Supreme Court. And meanwhile, Terra was a company whose GC worked in New York, who, if you go to the SEC's building, you can throw a rock almost to where the nationals played baseball, and the nationals are sponsored in some like $40 million contract by Terra.

General Observations on Regulatory Authority

So you can throw a rock and hit the terror club, and this guy is actually asserting that you don't have jurisdiction. So it's a problem in the civil context. So I would devote the resources on the criminal side, because when, you know, these guys received the SEC subpoena, they just don't care. But when they receive the grand jury subpoena, it's a totally different ballgame, it's a completely different paradigm, and it's terrifying. So I like the idea of more authority for criminals, exclusive jurisdiction to the SEC.

The Need for Broader Legal Definitions

You can't define security any broader than it's defined, and it has to be defined broadly. Darren, do you have any thoughts?

Market Manipulation and Celebrity Influence

Like, when is something an actual market manipulation? Or when is it somebody just saying, hey, go buy this. I think it's great. And it all comes down to your intent, what your intent is in the situation, except for one aspect of it. And that aspect is if you receive money to promote a security, and that security could be a token, as Kim Kardashian and so many others, John McAfee, DJ Khaled, Stephen Segal, so many countless celebrities have been sued for this. If you're being paid. Yes, even Segal. I know. He's one of my favorites, too. And I wrote an article about that because I was very upset. Like you. I was equally upset. I mean, you know, you look for certain things from someone. Certain little things can make me happy, like a Steven Segal movie or the fact that I'm sure there are a lot of people on this call who would agree that the brisket being back at Chipotle is one of the best things that's happened in the last, probably the last six months.

Celebrity Accountability and Market Risks

What about. Right? I grew up a hulkamania and launched the token and then said he was hacked and it robbed. Well, yeah, but see, that's the celebrities getting to a lot of trouble. They should not, you know, look, Judge Stanley Sporkin used to say, me. And he was a famous enforcement director at the SEC and a judge. And he said, if you lie down with dogs, you'll wake up with fleas. So you gotta stay. Kim Kardashian. Go ahead. She didn't learn her lesson either. Like, I just know people who, like, you know, head coach projects and stuff, and she was looking for a project to pay her $250,000 to promote it, and she wanted, you know, allocation. And she had without any, like, knowledge or, like, without caring about what the project entailed or if it was like a scam or like, just anything about it, she just was like, literally just looking for a pat.

Legal Implications of Securities Promotion

I'm like, didn't you already get. Well, that's the thing. No, nor, you make great point, though, because that's what I was trying to tell alchemists here, is that the section 17 B of the Security act is a strict liability statute. So when I was chief, we brought a sweep, because when the Internet first came around, I was there when it first started and people started using it. All sorts of people were being paid to spam about stocks or talk about them in message boards or chat rooms. Those are the precursor to social media. And we sued all of them because all you have to prove is that they were paid by somebody to promote and they didn't disclose the nature, source and amount of that compensation. So it's a strict liability situation. And so you can get into trouble if you're out there promoting this stuff and having a good time and your heart's in the right place if you're not making the adequate disclosures.

The Role of the SEC and Disclosures

And you could be caught up because it's all in plain view. So the SEC has all kinds of data, analytical tools where they're gathering that information, and you could get swept up in it. So make sure you're getting good advice. That's all I would say. You've got your hand up. Did you? I'm not taking advice from Kim Kardashian, that's for sure. Exactly. So what, alchemist, your hand is back up. All right, two parter, very interesting conversation. I'm a little late. Apologize. So, two parter, now, if you're out here and you are, you get paid to, you know, you're sponsored, whatever, you disclose that. Where are we at with that? Are you okay? Or is it still sketchy? Like great? That's what I'm saying. You got it. You got to get it.

Legal Guidance and Accountability

I know, I totally get what you're saying. You're looking for a straight answer from a securities lawyer, which you're never going to get, ever. So that's the annoying, it's the most over lawyered, over analyzed area. So that's a problem for you. But you can talk to a securities lawyer and say, here's what I'm doing. What are my disclosure obligations? What are the limitations on what I can and can't say? What's, what's puffery and what's hype and what's fraud? What are the differences between those things? And they can be very subtle. And all you need to do is get yourself associated with the wrong people making these kinds of claims, getting caught up in it, and having a good time.

The Shift in Crypto Market Discussion

Doodle cat is gonna flip. Bitcoin, like that kind of thing, right? Yeah. When you start saying that stuff, can. I jump in and give him like. A. I got a part two to my question, too. Get to. So if you're promoting a coin, you're. You're essentially, you know, saying it's like a good thing because you're promoting it. But that would be your job as somebody who shills it. Right. so if you. If that then drops and people lose money, that's. You're going to get sued because you basically, like, you know, false or misleading information. You, like, you presented false and misleading information about. I say, this is what Nora used to do for a living, so it's nothing.

Understanding Risks and Consequences

I got a part two for you. So it's literally that part. False, misleading statements. Or, you know, if you like, omitted information, then basically, like, this is. This is why securities. I worked for a security soft firm, right, at the economic or the great recession or whatever in 2008. We were so busy because stocks were crashing, and that's when we make money. So as soon as the price drops and people lose money, basically, yeah, you're the liable. Because then it's easy to say, like, well, you made false or misleading statements by promoting this, you know, as a opportunity, and it was a terrible.

Navigating Legalities of Promotion

What. What is the statute of limitations on the offense conduct? Wait, Peter, I got a part two. Statute of limitations. No, it's an important question. I have come. I think people need to hear. All right, go, John. Do you know the answer? It depends. It depends. So it's going to depend on the situation. But if you're asking that question, that means whatever you're doing, stop doing it. What's your second question, Alchemist? All right, second question. Right? I think we all know a few characters out here.

Exploring Accountability in Crypto

I could think of at least two off the top of my head. Guys in America, pretty much docs, guys out here, and they're launching project after project where you can clearly show that it's them. And some of these projects have been disasters, right? Oh, where are they at? Are we talking, like, criminal shit at this point? We're making projects. I'm not, but I'm saying there's guys out here serially doing this in America, and I'm like, these guys, are they thinking this through? So I was just curious. They're not. I think people need to hear this.

Evidentiary Trails in Crypto Misconduct

This is where it could get a bit different. Right. So. Well, they're not. This is a great question, and I'm going to turn to Darren to answer it more fully. But I can tell you this, they're leaving a resplendent and transparent evidentiary trail of what they are doing. So for the first time in history of the sec, normally when you were doing market manipulation, it was these boiler rooms out on Long island who had these phone banks. And the evidence was never as primary as it is now. So these people who are doing that, they're doing it in plain view.

Introduction to the Discussion

You participate in a lot of these spaces. I see you every weekend and so you hear all sides, so I have no idea what you're going to say. Yeah, thank you very much. I kind of laugh.

Experience in Spaces

I probably have about 17 or 18,000 hours participating in spaces. I'm not hearing spaces open. Can you go? Can you condescending. I hear, oh, can you, blue collar? Can you go off and then come back on again so I can hear you? I don't know what's going on, but I couldn't hear him either. Okay, so just come back on blue collar. I'm curious of what he says because here he is.

Technical Difficulties

We'll see if this works. Does that work? Blue collar, you back on. Now you take yourself off mute. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. I have no idea what you're gonna say. I'm gonna be gentle. I'm gonna be gentle. I will. I will. So for me, I gotta realize I'm around legal mind. So vocabulary is very important.

Observations on Crypto

So I probably have about 17 plus thousand hours observing. That's a proper terminology, not participation. Observing crypto spaces since conception of spaces. And it kind of makes me laugh. Like, these guys sound like a bunch of little rebellious brats. And I actually partially and more agree with you than I do them, but not 100%. I'd say about 90% of crypto is an absolute scam, absolute fraud, absolute criminal. Should not exist anywhere in finance.

Discussion on Specific Topics

But some of these examples that were proposed, when it comes to voting DMV, you're never going to have what's the ticker? You're not going to have a chance to invest in that. That's technology application versus the gamble holic addiction of fake fuck returns. Why would you. Thank you. That's cool. Go ahead. Well, just let me talk. I'm not going to be as nice to you as John is because you're my peer in this world.

Discussion on Perspectives

So I don't care if you're a woman or not. This is the world of DJ's. So I'm not going to be friendly you, not your parents. So would that be okay? Let's not get PJ. So. So with that being said, there are technological applications. There are infrastructure, there is hardware. There are actual crypto projects that have real business value and worth where they have a fair market value based off of teams investments.

Evaluation of Companies

Amazon realized it was more profitable to house the servers for this Ponzi nomics we call crypto. And these cereal box stickers they want to say is art. It's kind of funny. So, you know, as we go forward and look at it, Amazon themselves have also gone forward and have attempted to prepare pre regulatory clarity some form of NFT marketplace. So was master card, so was visa, so was Disney, so was a multiple, a multitude of different real businesses.

Concerns about the Future of Crypto

But they're just waiting for regulatory clarity. But at the end of the day, these pump for fun schemes, these meme launches, what's the ticker sponsors not publicly disclosing how much you're getting paid for allowing you to know they're part of the team. You guys are going to be in so much freaking trouble. You're selling crack in front of the police station, you're in live recorded spaces.

Warnings About Crypto Risks

You're in a place where it is so easy to get this open source documents and acting like we're fighting the system. You sound like a little brat that never got spanked. Like you're the product of the broad burning society and it's kind of a. You know, it's embarrassing because you're not representing crypto. You're representing the kid that's kicking and screaming at the grocery store because mommy said no to the bubble gum at checkout.

Concluding Observations

So I can't wait till you go back on this recording and realize, oh. I actually don't care. I want to say, darren, last question. You just signed everything I said. You know, I respond to his actual. His remarks. So here's the thing. The blue collar is that there are. The biggest issue of the use cases you described is cybersecurity.

Cybersecurity and Challenges

I don't know if you're familiar with zero knowledge protocols and how those work. I have a friend who is very. He's like, a well known, like, genius programmer. He does a chia blockchain. His name is Graham Cohen. And the zero knowledge proofs, and, like, the world coin, like the retina scanning is alleged to utilize, that there's. It's not secure. It can be hacked.

Risks in Tech Solutions

Like, the. The master mathematics involved is, like, it can be manipulated basically by testing, like, different algorithms that try, you know, different equations and you can. Yeah, it's not secure. So I think that's going to be the biggest thing, is that the cyber security issue, the blockchain isn't secure. And so for that, it seems like that would be a great utility if it were a secure, like, financial.

The Limitations of Blockchain

It could be work as a secure financial instrument. But my understanding of, like, the way the program software programming works, it's. That's a really huge fatal flaw, which might. You do understand, the blockchain is just a ledger. It is the largest self incriminating ledger that any man or woman has ever designed.

Self-Incrimination in Blockchain

It is not the freedom that you tout from the rooftops. You are 100% trackable, self incriminated. And the reason why different mixers still exist, like Manero, is because they are traceable. Like, you know, do you realize, like, the federal government, you're not. They're not going to watch you do one crime.

Law Enforcement and Cryptography

They're actually going to build a case on you, and they'll take time. They have the endless taxpayers paycheck. I don't want to get resources. You know that, right? It's a self incriminating ledger. It's not freedom. Not listening to what's being said without Kyc.

Doubts on Security

It's not self. I mean, like, you can. I have people in this audience that can find you. Like, I can. I have people that can find who you are just by looking at your Twitter page. Put my address on my Twitter page. But also, if you go back and listen to the recording, you literally co signed everything that I said.

Clarifying Misunderstandings

I said the exact, who are you again? That you said the same thing. I came up here and talked about everything that wasn't scummy crypto, and without you literally highlighted everything that I said and you did it by coming at me. So that makes typical sense in crypto, Twitter. The point is, John, I'm doing research.

Research in Blockchain Developments

I have seen from my preliminary look that Apple has filed for patents in blockchain. But I need to go look further because obviously you don't want to look. The bank of America has a majority of the patents. So if you want to look for a more interesting topic. Enemy. Because you're saying the same shit as me, you idiot.

Whistleblower Incentives

Hey, thank you. It sounded like you had a question for me. I was about to hop, but I. Just want to know how lucrative. How lucrative is this whistleblowing thing? I hear feds have a good, you know, insurance package and retirement plan. I mean, I'll go flip to the other side. I'm ready to work for team Red, white and blue.

Whistleblower Financial Rewards

I mean, look, the short answer to your question is that the whistleblower who qualifies can get between ten and 30% of what the government collects. So it all depends on the success of the government action, which is why you try to bring cases that have a lot of great evidence.

Ending the Session

I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, no worries. Hey, thanks again, John, for having me. I'm going to hop. That's all right. I'm going to move on. I'm going to start to end. I'm getting a lot of requests for people to speak, which is good. Obviously, everyone's free to disagree.

Blockchain Criticism

If you think blockchain is a great thing, my view is it's not. If you think crypto is a good thing, my view is it's a big Ponzi scheme. And I don't see how. One of, one of my favorite points is the research I did on all these big technology firms in blockchain.

Investment in Blockchain

Because, again, these firms have all sorts of billions of dollars they could put toward research and development, and they're not putting it towards maybe they have a few patents, they certainly will have consultants who will work. But I've spoken to people in these firms and like blue collar says, we might not agree on everything, but we would agree that you're talking about a spreadsheet.

Technology vs Blockchain

And if it went away tomorrow, nothing would change. If the iPhone went away tomorrow, everything would change. If the Internet went away tomorrow, everything would change. If the cloud went away tomorrow, everything would change. These are transformative technologies that were very easy for people to understand from the moment you picked them up.

Comparison to Traditional Technology

Like the first time you received a fax, right? The first time you received the facts. When you're my age, you can remember faxes. It was unbelievable. You could see, wow, this is pretty amazing. It's going to do incredible things. Things. And with blockchain again, I believe what the technologists tell me.

Technologist's Perspective

I've been around technology for the last 40 years, but I'm not an engineer, but I've spoken to so many engineers, and I just encourage everybody to read my article, read the concern tech and make the decision yourself. And I appreciate that. Hey, you might have some antipathy toward the current establishment, but that's just part of the scam, is to appeal to people's disdain for government and disdain for the big financial banks and use that to cultivate this notion of inclusion, of bringing the unbanked into the banking system of libertarian notion.

Challenging Crypto's Narrative

And this libertarian notion is really mixed up because there are about a dozen anti money laundering laws in the United States. The Bank Secrecy act is probably the most famous. Theres the Anti Money Laundering act, the USA Patriot act, and they all say essentially that when it comes to your financial transactions, you dont have much privacy.

Legislation on Privacy Matters

That when I worked at the SEC or when I was in AUSA, an assistant us attorney, I can get your bank records or your, well, your bank records from the SEC. Youre actually going to receive notice of about, because of the right to Financial Privacy act. But I can get your brokerage records. You won't even get notice about it.

Government Oversight

Eventually I can get all of your financial records, and I can know every single thing that you're doing when it comes to your money. And you might not like that. You might say we should repeal all those laws. But the bottom line is they're on the books because they stop terrorism, they stop crime, and they're an important part of the reason why our financial markets in the United States at least have such integrity.

Importance of Regulatory Laws

So these laws are critical. They've been around for a long time. If you want to vote to repeal them, go ahead. I was one of the spaces that I was on, and a guy got on and he said, no, bitcoin is great because I can go to the airport and I can move $5 million worth of crypto from one country to another, and nobody knows the difference.

Crypto as a Medium for Crime

Well, that's the whole point. And that's why crypto has become the killer app for all kinds of crime. And you can look at my favorite example, of course, is ransomware. Recently, just a few months back, at FBI headquarters, at a big meeting with a bunch of FBI agents who do cyber, all the senior cyber officials from the Justice Department.

FBI's Challenge with Ransomware

And I asked this question, have you ever recovered a ransomware payment? Have you ever recovered it? Answer, no. Have you ever caught a ransomware attacker? Answer, no. Theres a reason there was $1.3 billion of ransomware payments in 2022. None of that has ever been recovered.

Challenges in Cyber Crime Investigations

No one has ever been caught. Theres one case of some famous bitcoin scammer getting caught in New York, and they found his laptop in a trash can under a blanket in his bathroom, in a popcorn tin under a blanket in his bathroom. That was a pretty impressive takedown, and it took like five different agencies to do it.

Government Limitations

But the bottom line is, the Justice Department, the FBI, they dont have the resources, nor when this is international, they may be able to identify where the crypto went. But crypto traceability is an absolute myth. There are a million ways to cloak your crypto, and thats why ransomware just becomes this incredibly horrific crime.

Ransomware and Public Safety

I mean, where I teach at Duke in North Carolina, when the pipeline got hit, it was getting really scary. In North Carolina, you couldn't fly in because there was no gas. There was no gas for anybody. So you couldn't get a fly into the state because there were no taxis, nobody was driving because they couldn't get gas anywhere.

Consequences of Cyber Attacks

There was no way for people to get around. And eventually, I think in that case, they paid the ransom most of the time. I mean, I don't know if I can make the generalization. Most of the time, they pay. But with respect to the cases I've worked on, they typically pay because they got to keep their business alive.

Payment Methods in Cybercrime

And how do they pay? It's in bitcoin. And when I say, but for bitcoin, there would be no ransomware, I am 100% absolutely correct, because I've been an expert on ransomware since the day it started. There may have been some older cases of ransomware where, hey, pay me dollar 30 worth of bitcoin, or I'll tell the world you've been watching porn or cheating on your spouse or something.

Evolving Ransomware Techniques

But besides those little scams that you would do get the little viruses on your computer, the big ransomware industry, which is now a multifaceted, very complex industry, raising money for everything, all kinds of money laundering, terrorism, you know, North Korea is using it to fund their nuclear weapons program.

Funding Illegal Activities

So and then you look at all these terrible human sex trafficking, human slavery, just read Ziegfall's book about everything that's being used, that it's all being funded by tether. So the idea that these dire externalities and then the constant response is always same, oh, now do fiat.

Critique of Crypto's Defense

And that is the most absurd response ever. First of all, its just silly. Whataboutism I dont care about. Just because theres crime in fiat doesn’t mean its acceptable in crypto. But the other thing thats ridiculous is there have been several studies that I cited in one of my traceability articles.

Crime Comparisons

And clearly, when it comes to fiat, you’re dealing with a much larger. So if you say the percentage of fraud that goes on with respect to fiat versus the percentage of fraud that goes on with crypto is a much smaller universe. So those numbers arent even real.

Fraud in Cryptocurrencies

But most of crypto, most of bitcoin, what its being used for is crime. Theres no other utility. It doesnt function well as a store of value. It doesnt function well. Do you want to pay taxes every single time you transact in crypto? It's complicated.

Issues with Crypto Transactions

Its not reversible. The intermediary is critical for the consumer. The fact that when you buy something on Amazon with your credit card, you can dispute it with Amazon, you can dispute it through your credit card, dispute it through your bank.

Consumer Protection Failures in Crypto

There are a million ways to help you if something goes wrong with a transaction, but there's nothing to help you with respect to these crypto transactions, nothing. So you're just out of luck. I think that intermediary is very important. I don't understand this notion of disintermediation.

Misconceptions around Disintermediation

It's a myth. The fees, theres a million digital currencies right now, from cash app to Zelle to PayPal. And you say, wow, the fees. The fees are minimal. Theyre just minimal for the convenience that you get out of it.

Crypto's Comparison to Traditional Finances

And if youre coming from one of these countries with some horrific currency like youre in a very destabilized environment like Brazil, and you say, look, I want crypto in Brazil because the currency we have is constantly devalued and theres constant issues. If thats what youre seeing, then fine, maybe have at it, but dont bring it to the United States because we dont need it, and dont bring it to any country that doesnt have these terrible dictatorships.

Personal Experiences with Crypto

My friends Ben McKinsey and Jacob Silverman went to El Salvador, and they traveled there for about a month. And they came back. They came to my house and spent a day with me to tell me what it was like for this country that somehow adopted bitcoin as their national currency and how incredible scam it was and how awful it was for the people of El Salvador.

Cautionary Tales from Other Countries

So I might not have been to all these countries because I'm not that well traveled, but I talk to people who have, and I listen to them. And so I just don't believe that this idea, that these ideas are somehow going to make the world a better place.

Critique on Financial Inclusion Arguments

When I was up testifying in front of Congress, one of these things that comes up that's so absurd is the idea that this is somehow, again, going to cure issues of financial inclusion for people. And there is not a single study that says anything of that nature.

Research Findings on Crypto Impact

In fact, studies say the complete opposite, that this crypto is bad for people of color, is bad for minority and different types of whatever type of financial situation you have. Fnasen Carmoza of the Brookings Institution did a lengthy study on all of this.

Objective Research on Crypto

And you can read her results at the Brookings Institution, completely objective. And she said this does not help at all. Michelle Singletary, who is a legendary financial writer for the Washington Post, wrote a lengthy article explaining how crypto was not helping people color.

Legality of Crypto Figures

So these guys get up there again, these big crypto guys who are all the woman mentioned, Brian Armstrong and Coinbase, as being geniuses, theyre getting sued by the SEC. I just dont see that as something that makes any sense. Its a good thing.

Legal Context of Crypto

Well, what theyre doing is theyve conducted this litigation arbitrage, and they just say, hey, better to beg forgiveness, then ask permission. So we'll just do it. We'll make hundreds of millions of dollars.

Justice Department and Legal Processes

And by the time they catch us, you know what, worst comes to worst, we go to jail for a couple years, or maybe we don't even go to jail. We just pay a big fine, but we'll win in the long run. We can drag this out forever.

Responses to Regulatory Action

So I don't see that as any kind of badge of honor as well. And so I don't. You can change, you can repeal, if you want to repeal the 33 act of the 34 act, you want to make it so you don't have to register, fine, you can argue for that.

Debating Legal Frameworks

You want to repeal the Bank Secrecy act? Fine, you can argue for that. But those are the laws that exist in the country that have worked and been effective tools for law enforcement. I don't like it. I'm a libertarian myself.

Personal Libertarian Beliefs

I don't like that the government, I've written extensively on this, can get access to all kinds of information about me. But at the same time, I realized these are important laws, and without them, the country would be a lot worse off.

Addressing Audience Queries

So let me just, let me take another questioner, Brett. Brett C. Banthy, you have requested and bring you on. I see blue collar, you got your hand up, but let's see if we can get some other questions in here.

Engaging with the Audience

Brett, are you speaking? You're on. You. Hi. Thank you so much for having me up. I really appreciate it. I'm one of those people, and maybe. I speak for a lot of the. People in the audience who tend to agree with most of the positions of all of the speakers.

Acknowledging Diverse Opinions

I think that there's a lot of value to what every speaker has been talking about. Maybe I would just comment because I'm just coming back from the World Wide Web consortium in Anaheim, California, where they were celebrating their 30th anniversary.

Insights from the World Wide Web Consortium

It's the space that standardizes the protocols for the World Wide Web. And while at the space, I was talking to a director for Microsoft, and he specifically brought up this use case that I thought was really interesting and I'd never considered before.

Microsoft's Perspective

He said that one of the things that he learned about blockchain that gave him a second pause to consider its application was when he was talking to some companies out of Estonia. And he said that Estonia has a long history of being invaded.

Historical Context of Estonia

And as these, as the country is invaded, the first thing that the invaders do is delete all the documents, the registry documents of, you know, the property rights of the people from the area. So that potentially, you know, we don't think of that, you know, coming from, you know, a very secure country.

Real-World Implications

But I thought that was really. Interesting, and I just wanted to propose that to see, you know. So do you think a use case like that could potentially have merit in terms of the separation of the concept of blockchain from the concept of crypto itself?

Value of Blockchain Beyond Crypto

I guess I find it's a great question, and I think it's fair. I think it's really fair to look at other countries and see why it might make sense for those countries because of how volatile the regimes are in those countries.

Judicial and Legal Challenges

So I totally get that. I guess I don't, from a litigation standpoint, whether any of these technological solutions can actually, these smart contracts can somehow be enforced in a court of law in front of a judge.

The Role of Regulation

And I find all that very challenging, that idea that ultimately you're going to need a judge or some independent third party to verify when there's a dispute or to come in and manage the dispute.

Challenges in Blockchain Enforcement

And I just dont know how any of this blockchain could be meaningful in that context. I think when it comes to private blockchains, again, youre a financial firm and you feel like a private blockchain in your back office is going to work to help you with verifying transactions.

Private Blockchains and Their Efficacy

Have at it. Every technologist I talk to says that it doesnt work. Its clunky and awful. But if you want to do that in a private blockchain, go ahead. Theres lots of places that you go to and you scratch your head, like, what is the point of this technology if youre staying in a hotel or youre visiting the supermarket and youre just like, this seems like a complete waste and its not solving any problem that happens all the time in business.

Concerns Regarding Utility

But when you make it in terms of some sort of investment, which is what con artists do, and when you enable the crime, and these are all government reports, you can read the FBIS report, the DOJS report, the Fincens report on just how disturbing the crime wave is because of crypto, you have to sit back and say, for what?

Examining the Crypto Landscape

For what? Why are we doing this? If this went away tomorrow, no one would care. This idea that, well, the technology is still young. Boy, I hear that so often, and I hear it most often.

Skepticism Towards Blockchain's Potentials

You might be surprised to hear this in the audience is one of my closest friends in the world. The longest, oldest friends that I have is a guy named Anthony Scaramucci.

Friendship with a Crypto Advocate

And Anthony, if you havent heard of him, he was a counselor to Trump for like eleven days, and then he got fired. And hes a real character. Hes a big crypto supporter. He has company. Skybridge has multiple crypto funds and hes a huge supporter.

Diverse Perspectives on Technology

And we grew up together. Weve been buddies since were ten years old. And I dont know how many of you have friendships that are 50 years old, but thats a pretty special thing.

Debating Technology's Efficacy

So I see where Anthony comes from and his favorite thing to say to me. And were debating this on a Wall Street Journal podcast, the two of us, and it was a lot of fun.

Engaging in Meaningful Discussions

And also on there was Kelsey Hightower from Google. Google, whos an unbelievable technologist. You can probably look that up somewhere with Anthony, Kelsey and myself.

Constructive Conversations

And it was just terrific. There was someone else there from one of those crypto lobbying firms. So he always has that. To me, hes like, John, this technology is young.

Critique of simplistic Technology Arguments

You dont understand its young and I do understand, I think that when technology is transformative like the Internet was when I was chief of the office of Internet Enforcement, that was for eleven years.

Personal Technology Experience

I started out, I became special counsel for Internet projects in 1993 at the SEC. After I did a stint at the us attorneys office in DC doing like guns, drugs and domestic violence cases, I came back to the SEC and I was like, I want something a little more technology oriented.

Contributions to Tech Policies

And I started doing crypto, pardon me, started doing cyber and I ran around the country teaching people how to use the Internet to bring their cases. I wrote the first official guidelines for using electronic evidence in SEC investigations.

Innovative Practices in Cybersecurity

I even set up the first mailbox at the SEC that the public could write to, which was enforcementcc dot gov dot. And I read those, I read the emails every morning when I came to work and replied to them all, usually with an auto reply but sometimes personally.

Technology Advocacy History

So I was running around promoting this technology because I saw just how amazing it was back in 1993. And I just don't. I think Anthony is wrong when he makes these arguments that somehow hey, we're still in the early phases.

Evaluation of Blockchain's Efficacy

That's just too easy. You need a better argument than that. And then if you read the concerned tech letter you just realize that very bright people from all walks of life, from all types of companies have universally declared the this is bunk.

Responses to Emerging Tech

So Brett, you know I appreciate there may be some uses for it and I'm happy to see those go, but I see those happen and if they're transformative that's fine. But I just don't believe the hype.

Final Thoughts on Crypto Landscape

Thank you very much for having me up. Thanks Brett. Let's go with somebody else. Brian, I'll add you as a speaker. Brian, you're up. I think we lost. Brian, you're up in the speaker. He needs to take off.

Technical Issues Continues

Mute. Everyone else can hear him but me. I don't see him or hear him. John. Oh Brian, you want to come back on and I'll make you a speaker after that I was just going to. Give you a couple focal points for research purposes because you said you were going to look into some things.

Research Recommendations

JPMorgan Chase has developed their own permission chain so they can manage clawbacks and also probably insure transaction things of that nature. And also look into PayPal. Stable and United Kingdom just went through a full stablecoin regulatory approval process where it was required they were backed by 60% euro and other assets.

Industry Trends and Developments

A couple of things just to do some research in and come back with an opinion and I think that'll you know, I don't want you to waste your time. Time is money. But that'd be a good quick reference to how things are used and what an intent may be.

Open-minded Collaborations

Yeah, like I said, I put an article in where I went over every single blockchain project I'd have ever heard of and also found technology. Let me, let me get at Brian as a speaker, researched it and I just don't buy it and I don't think I'm going to change my mind, but I can appreciate that.

Building Constructive Conversations

Other people do. Okay, Brian, we got you on there. Hey, thanks, John. I appreciate it. And as you probably already know, I'm a huge fan of yours. I think that we definitely share more in common than, you know, we disagree on.

Cautious Approach to Blockchain

However, I would say this premise of your point I find contentious in the sense of blockchain. And I think it's not your fault or, you know, anybody's fault at this point.

Historical Context of Blockchain

You know, as you said, 17 years in, actually much longer if you go back to Scott Stornetta and Stuart Haber, who still to this day put a hash of their, you know, data in the Sunday Times just for data integrity.

Developments in Blockchain's History

And I guess, you know, I completely understand and even share your concerns about the crypto space. I've testified about it and the New York state Senate.

Critique on Current Crypto Trends

I mean, obviously it's been, you know, rife with scams and speculative chaos. It's really just a crypto casino. But I also believe we're at this pivotal point where the true value of the underlying technology that powers crypto, which is blockchain, is really breaking beyond the noise of cryptocurrency and only now just revealing itself.

Emerging Values of Blockchain Technology

A lot of the premises that have been built upon as far as our understanding of blockchain and where it fits in and how it's used has really been faulted and hijacked by, in my personal opinion, the scammers, the crypto. So currency scammers more than those technologists that you speak of.

The Need for Critical Evaluation

I've worked 20 years in digital transformation, where if you plugged it in ahead of light, it made a noise. I consulted with an enterprise or government on it.

Cybersecurity Experience

And really it was twelve years of dealing with cybersecurity issues that led me to blockchain because it's our infrastructure, the TCP IP, that really, as an issue.

Infrastructure Comparison

If you really look at blockchain, thinking of it as the next layer of infrastructure and building on top of today's Internet basic foundation, which again is TCP IP, which basically just allows computers to communicate across and exchange data.

Blockchain as a New Layer

Blockchain really just adds this layer that enables secure transformation, transparent and tamper proof transactions of not just financial but data as well.

Fusion of Data and Finance

When you think of the name bitcoin, you hear the name bit and coin. So this fusion of data and finance, however, we've only ever heard about the finance aspect.

Introduction of New Solutions

Well, I'm here to tell you today that we've worked with IBM over the last four years to develop a cutting edge solution to mitigate the detection time of a YDezenhe data breach, which has been over 200 days for ten years.

Improving Cybersecurity Measures

Right. That's where we are today, over 200 days. We've been able to mitigate that with proof of work. Blockchain scalable enterprise technology to near instant and provide an auditable trail for cyber insurance to understand the risk that they're engaging with those companies, to understand how fast they're able to response because require a note, a hash thats placed on chain to depict exactly what they did to mitigate that alert.

Blockchain Impact on Security Solutions

When you really start to think this out of utilizing blockchain as an extension of TCP IP, it really alleviates two of the core issues, which is this heavy reliance on trusted third parties.

Decentralization Benefits

And again, in many ways, intermediaries, or intermediaries are required. But when you look at our infrastructure, we're basically putting all of our records, important sensitive data, in a honey pot and acting like cyber attackers shouldn't be incentivized to just hack that one way.

Decentralization and Security

What blockchain does is decentralize those records and make it almost economically inconceivable to hack them. And then ultimately, we have another layer where we're required to use a trusted third party like PayPal, right, that also holds our data instead of having just a native payment system that we all can use.

Debates on Blockchain Functionality

Now, I believe the blockchain trilemma is a faulted concept that you can have decentralization, security and scalability. I think we've proven that even to this day, where the likes of BSB blockchain is testing over a million transactions per second with these big companies that you named like Amazon Web Services and Aerospike.

Critique of Current Standards

So I do think while you're spot on about this crypto casino, and look, there's not a technology in my lifetime, or I expect even to be in my lifetime, that we take 80 to 100 years worth of law and throw them out to books.

Importance of Regulation in Technology

Obviously, let's apply to how we test to these technologies. If there's securities they need to register. But we also have to look at how? We are looking at the BSA new rule set on how we engage with non custodial wallets.

Debates on Non-Custodial Wallets

I would argue the new request of those authoritative powers to ban non custodial wallets is the worst idea ever. Like prohibition.

Concerns Regarding Regulation

Why? Because if you could listen into a network of terrorists that are utilizing crypto, right, for financial payments, which they can basically stabilize with stolen guns, slaves and oil, then how are you really going to ban that?

Security and Crime Monitoring

I mean, the reality, it's like if you were listening to them on a cellular network, banning those custodial network or custodial wallets would be equivalent to turning off the network and not knowing or being able to gather that intelligence.

Final Thoughts on the Current Landscape

And as you guys so eloquently said, it's the worst technology on the planet to commit a crime on an immutable distributed ledger. But again, I really love all of your thoughts in this space.

Openness to Discussion

I've tagged you in a lot on LinkedIn as well as Twitter x, but I'd love to engage with you because I do think that blockchain definitely has a place as serving as infrastructure.

Blockchain's Future Potential

And then you only have to look at the geopolitical map of seeing what the likes of China has done to outcast crypto and empower blockchain technology because it's faster, cheaper and you can do more with it, which is ultimately why we go into digital transformation technologies in the first place.

Concluding Remarks

Thank you again. All right. No, I'm glad to hear all that. It sounds like you're really, again, your heart's in the right place and you're trying to make things better and you believe the technology works.

Disagreement on Effectiveness

I'm just not seeing proof of that. And I dont believe again, its been used so much as the flavor of the month to try to coerce people into investing in the idea.

Skepticism Based on Experience

I go back to the concerned tech letter and the research that I did. You mentioned IBM, the big failure with respect to Maersk and the shipping, that they were going to use blockchain to solve all shipping problems.

Experience with Blockchain Claims

I'm always kind of skeptical, Brian, not of you, because you sound very sincere and it sounds like the projects you're working on are definitely worthwhile.

Critiques of Promised Blockchain Applications

But there's so many times where you hear, hey, it's going to cure cancer. Or hey, like Nora said before, my wife's an artist. You know, everyone coming up to her date, oh, this is going to revolutionize the way you do your art.

Unrealistic Expectations in Blockchain

And I just don't see it. I just see a lot of charlatans, which is unfortunate. And I guess we're on common ground there and. But what? I just. I just wonder, as I said, if this technology went away tomorrow, would it matter to anyone, really, unless they were working in the space or had invested in the space?

Speculation about Blockchain's Relevance

I don't think. I think you're right. It hasn't had an impact yet, but it would matter, right? I think our data security, our data integrity, look at SolarWinds, they were able to, you know, not only just manipulate 17,000 direct customers, but another additional 30,000 indirect customers, vendors that may be attached to that network.

Security Breaches and Their Scale

Ten different departments. Hold on. Ten different departments of our entire us government. Four different branches of our military. Like, this is our most sensitive networks. And if we're allowing, you know, requirement of two penetration tests from two separate companies a year, and they go unnoticed across ten different departments, including four different branches of our military, for 14 months, we have an existential problem for data integrity and information security.

National Security Concerns

And how can we build upon that if we're not able to know that our most sensitive networks are secure? And I mean, if that's the case, I mean, the reality, the reason why ransomware isn't reported is because they don't want to get the ransomware.

Reporting Failures in Cybersecurity

Then when they report it back to government, we're not here really trying to earnestly solve these problems. And honestly, I would say those biggest tech companies that you also are highlighting are some of the biggest barriers to really giving the most innovative technologies that are built from the smallest niche companies on the planet.

Barriers to Innovative Solutions

We don't, you know, a way to bring these technologies to the forefront. A lot of those, you know, requests for information or solutions are already baked in for the bigger companies.

Current Landscape of Challenges

We saw that with, you know, Google and Microsoft a couple years ago. But, you know, if we're still using Einstein in our government's infrastructure, instead of looking at new solutions that aren't easily susceptible, that don't have backdoors, then what are we even doing?

The Need for New Solutions

We should be kicking the tires on this technology. And I've worked with the likes of Interpol, the DoD and others to try to get them to look at just, you know, look at where this falls into for information security.

Reevaluating Security Strategies

We can't just stand on the sideline and point at the crypto fires that the media is pointing out every time. We all know they're there. But let's look, let's scratch a little bit deeper.

Encouragement for Deeper Investigation

Let's justify these arguments that we've heard on the show or that you've proposed, or others like myself have proposed. Let's actually look at the technologies that are functioning to where they're scalable and they do deliver solution.

Distinguishing Between Scams and Solutions

I mean, you look at Scottie Pippen's ball token and it's all promises and it's all a scam, right? But then you look at something like my card shares that actually the token that you're utilizing is for the governance of what that person does with the card and for the immortalization of that contract between that private group of people to make a purchase of something.

Final Remarks and Conclusion

So. Well, I got. Brian, I got to cut you off because I'm going to end the space soon, but I'm glad you had your say. I think that I disagree on the endpoint detection and response.

Critique on Endpoint Detection

I think there are lots of products out there. There's no great solution. They're all a mess in the sense. But I don't think blockchain is going to solve the EDR issues.

Closing Thoughts

I think there's all kinds of technology and innovation in that space that I'm excited about. But at the same time, you know, whether you experience a data breach, it's like saying when my kids were in kindergarten, when they come home and I want to prevent them from getting a cold, you know, it's the same thing when it comes to cyber attacks.

Broader Perspectives on Cybersecurity

So I kind of look at it that way and I don't think the EDR space is going to be saved by blockchain. But I'm glad that you're working in it and I'm glad that you're trying to find these solutions.

Future of Cybersecurity Solutions

I'm just very skeptical, as are quite a few technologists who express that in the concern tech letter blue collar. You want to give a last point before.

Final Conclusion on Blockchain Technology

I just realized, I think this space has been going on for 4 hours or three and a half since 01:00 so probably time to run. I'll keep it quick. The Ty royal family is the most wealthy royal family in the world.

Global Perspectives on Blockchain

More wealthy than the families of Saudi Arabia, Dubai, anything of that nature. Thailand is actually about 80 plus percent blockchain and digital transactions under like a CBDC format.

Regional Adaptation Towards Blockchain

BRICS is going to go forward with a similar direction. So I think if were to speculate any solutions that are existing, because I don't believe all these layer one and layer twos are even necessary, there is going to be filtered.

Looking Towards Future Innovations

But if were to look at living examples of people that are living in the present outside of the speculation of the past, like great conversation, but you guys are talking VHS when there's other nations that are streaming 4K, you know, so if look at Thailand, United Arab Emirates is heading in that direction as well as BRICS and see what not only security solutions, but.

Concluding the Space

And or blockchain usability that they found favorable for, I think that'd be a good thing. Well, my eyes are always open and I read everything, and I don't need, you know, a quick TikTok or a quick blurb.

Commitment to Continuous Learning

I'll. I'll read 50 pages, 100 pages, 1000 pages, if it's worth reading, and enjoy it. So. But I'll stay into it. And I appreciate everyone being on.

Value of Diverse Perspectives

Everyone's got different points of view, different perspectives. Nora, did you have any last words? I don't mean last words in life. I mean last words for the space.

Discussion on Cybersecurity

I guess I could say that I really was interested in what Brian was talking about. Brian, you do cyberpaper living. I'm more interested in hearing about that.

Final Thoughts on Security Solutions

But I still think that. I think that you have a bit of a bias because it is your childhood to kind of protect from hacks.

Recognizing Existing Challenges

But I think, John, you're. We're well aware that cybersecurity. We went to that cybersecurity conference.

Insights from Cyber Conference

Almost nothing is secure. Sorry. But yeah, I think the biggest concern too is, though, yeah, I still think there's the lack of security that can be hacked, that it opens the door for ransomware.

Growing Concerns for Cybersecurity

In terms of, like, even though it's. Yeah, it's like a. It's a ledger.

Characteristics of Ledger Systems

It's not a public. Even if it's a public ledger, like, that doesn't mean you can necessarily associate identities, especially when they're international entities that use VPN's and complex networks to hide their, you know, identity.

Discussion on Anonymity and Identity

Like, there's just so many issues that it's like, again, it's. We've talked. We've said this many times, John, saying a lot of times, crypto is a solution looking for a problem. Yes.

Critical Analysis of Crypto's Role

Or like. Or, you know, and do feel like that's true to an extent. And it has, I think it's found some integration into things. Like I said, like with art and.

Integration of Crypto in Various Sectors

Decentralized gambling and stuff. And a lot of that, though, has to do with the fact that, like, think about how much VC money and like.

Investment Dynamics in Crypto

That's right. That's a great point. Institutional money has gone into it. Like, literally, they've tried so hard to make crypto. It's nothing.

Concerns Over Large Financial Backing

No. And it's all just to make their own short term profits. There's no worse than when you watch CNBC in the morning.

Media Influence on Crypto

And I've been on CNBC, you can look it up on YouTube and see me on there, and I start arguing with them. And while I'm arguing with them about crypto, there's like an ad running below my name for some big crypto intermediary.

Observations on Media Bias

I mean, they're just completely and utterly biased toward crypto. And I dont understand why.

Challenges in Media Representations

I find it incredible that they are not more skeptical, and its very disturbing because Lee Reiners has been on there, Anthony Scaramucci has been on there, and they have so much crypto programming and so many crypto sponsors that I think theyre no longer genuinely skeptical about something thats staring them in the face as a massive fraud that's creating just extraordinary systemic risk that I have no desire to experience.

Impact of Systemic Risk

So even though I want nothing to do with crypto, it can impact me because of the systemic risk and the crime. The dire externalities associated with it are unbelievable.

Systemic Risk Overview

The fact that on CNBC, you can sit there and they can talk about an asset. On the one hand, when they're talking about a stock and they're going through the analytics and they're like, okay, let's look at the financial statements, let's look at the balance sheet, let's look at the income statements, read the ten qs, the ten k.

Analyses of Traditional Investments

Lets see what the auditing, whats the management all about that theyre used to this really strict level of due diligence. They bring on these crypto people, whether they be venture capitalists, investors, private equity, who all have an incredible stake in this, and they still put these people on to tell you how great crypto is.

Discrepancies in Reporting Practices

I just cant believe it. It's just so annoying. It makes me almost not want to watch CNBC, but I still watch it.

Media Attitude Towards Crypto

But I got to hold my nose half the time. I still wrestle with this question, how do you value crypto? How do you value bitcoin? How do you put any number on this idea of the greater fool theory?

Valuation Challenges

We had a bunch of callers today bringing it up, saying again that I'm just being stupid, and look how much money it's made for people. That's the truth behind every Ponzi scheme for a while.

Skepticism on Crypto's Profitability

It makes people a lot of money. And then when it crashes, everyone says, you know what? The emperor had no clothes, and it was right in front of us.

Concluding Thoughts

So that's how I view all this. I'm glad we had Darren today. Nora, thank you for coming. Blue collar, everyone else, thanks.

Gratitude for Participation

Thanks to all the people who asked questions. Maybe I'll do another space. This was really interesting.

Future Discussions

There were four new cases that I really wanted to talk about and that I had written about, so it gave me something. As soon as there are more cases come down, I'll do another one, and I'm willing to hear from anybody, and I really appreciate it.

Reflections on Engagement

I think this is an incredible medium where I can just sit around the house. When my family happened to be away for most of the day today, my dog's killing me right now because he's desperate, she's desperate for a walk.

Conclusion of the Conversation

But other than that, it's a pleasure listening to people I love. It was mostly today about 99% respectful, which was really nice.

Appreciation for Respectful Dialogue

and I appreciate that. And I I'll listen to it again when I get some time and try to make sure I'm looking up everything that everyone said, because I really do appreciate different points of view, and I'm not afraid to change my mind.

Openness to Changing Views

I'm really not. I'm not invested in any way. I don't mind changing my mind at all. And I don't mind walking away from it at all either.

Perspective on Investments

Cause, it's just not, I have no stake in it other than I just want, at some point, the right information to get out, meaning correct, not right as inappropriate.

Importance of Accurate Information

And also, you keep me on my toes in terms of keeping up with what's happening in the law and regulatory environment.

Engagement with Regulatory Matters

So I feel like I'm behind now because, you know, I haven't done my homework since without you around.

Continuous Learning and Adaptation

Well, the four cases that I spoke about, what drives me crazy and the reason for today the most was that you still have people testifying in front of Congress, like the SEC is this big loser in crypto.

Criticisms of Current Legal Framework

And the reality is that they have won all the time. And I made, I think, a decent case in describing ripple even as a victory.

Contextualizing Legal Successes

And they can appeal it, but it has no precedential value. It's totally an outlier. And even the things that it says are not anything that's going to help any of the crypto community.

Defining the Landscape

It's just more these people will get up and say anything. When these entities lose their cases to the SEC, they get up and they say that they won.

Distortions of Legal Outcomes

It's crazy. The level of spinous and the fact that these companies can wear an SEC lawsuit that challenges the core crux of their business as a badge of honor and not a scarlet letter, and not something that's going to ultimately kill them, but treat it as something like they're these rebels that's appealing to people.

Caution Against Manipulated Narratives

It appeals to me somehow, but they're taking advantage of people. It's the way that these scams work.

Unpacking the Crypto Narrative

They tap into some part of you that, hey, I don't like these big banks. I don't like these big financial behemoths. So ironically, I've substituted for another one, the bitcoin spot.

Critique of Investment Choices

ETF is, I think, the worst decision that Gary Gensler ever made. And the two dissenting commissioners, they've given crypto and bitcoin a little bit of a label, and they've allowed these big financial companies to profit off of people who have no idea what theyre buying.

Concerns Over Public Understanding

And anybody who buys bitcoin, like these 15,000 Morgan Stanley brokers, are out there peddling it to their clients. I dont know what theyre saying, because the only thing that you can legitimately say is what that one caller said earlier, which is, hey, it made a lot of money the last year, so itll make you, its profited a lot.

The Allure of Quick Wealth

Its gone up higher than anything else. So buy it. Itll make you rich. You can get rich quick, and you dont have to work.

Critique of Get-Rich Schemes

And that's appealing to a lot of people. And it's innovation and it's anti government and it helps the unbanked and it helps for financial inclusion. These are all the signs of your typical scam.

Red Flags in Investment Opportunities

Again, I was at the SEC enforcement division for 20 years, almost 20 years, and every scam has those same hallmarks. So anyone in the audience who's listening, if you're on the fence about this stuff, get away from it.

A Cautionary Reminder

Go invest in something else. Invest in an S and P index fund with Vanguard that has low fees, and maybe itll get hurt when theres some kind of stock market crash.

Prudent Investment Advice

Im not an investment expert, but do this when it comes to your investment. Talk to people you trust. Make the decision like you would choosing a doctor for heart surgery.

Taking Care with Investments

Be really careful when youre looking at all this stuff. And dont give in to any of this non think about regulation as a good thing.

The Importance of Regulation

It's good that when you get on a plane, the airlines are regulated so the plane won't crash. It's good that when you use a drug at the drugstore that you buy to help you with whatever your problem is, that it went through a lot of tests before it got to you so that it won't kill you.

Safety in Regulations

And it's good that the SEC, FINRA, FinCen, and all these organizations are in the middle to help you and to make sure to keep everybody in check.

The Role of Regulatory Bodies

The auditors, the examiners, centers, all of them, the inspectors at the SEC who look at these, who go into these entities to check what's going on.

Due Diligence in Regulation

I mean, when I was head of the office of Internet Enforcement, if I heard of any shenanigans at any regulated entity firm, I would just. I had five different people from in my office alone, in our office, who were former members of the Office of Compliance Inspections, examinations.

Enforcement with Authority

And I would say, hey, call your buddies over there, tell them this is a great place to do a four cause examination. Go over there, demand every document, find out what's happening.

Upholding Standards

And if they don't get straight answers by the end of the day, let's open an enforcement case and bring them to justice. So that's the kind of thing the regulator can do.

Protective Frameworks

They're there to help you and to make it better for you and to keep you safe. And all of these entities don't want to register with the SEC, not because they hate government.

Lack of Compliance

It's because they couldn't withstand that kind of scrutiny. They wouldn't withstand it for a minute.

Evading Regulations

So they might say, like, hey, the SEC makes it too hard to register. That's not true. Tether says it's too hard for us to audit our books. That's not true.

Challenging Claims of Difficulty

These people can audit like the space program, don't you think? How hard is it to audit whether these tethers are actually backed by actual verifiable assets in an account somewhere?

Explore the Reality of Blockchain's Backing

It's not hard. That's not a difficult audit to conduct. Don't believe them. So be careful. Think about your future.

Future Investments

Think about your retirement like I am, and think about your families before you get into this garbage and just, you know, watch it from the sidelines.

Closing Reflections

It's all. It's very interesting from the sidelines. But don't become a part of it. Don't roll the dice. Don't gamble.

Personal Reflections

This is your future. This is the rest of your life. So I would tell you, just stay away from it. It's a den of thieves.

Characterizing the Crypto Landscape

It's anarchical marketplace. There's no transparency. There's no accountability. And the lunatics running the asylum, so that's how I would end this space.

Final Outlook

I really, again, appreciate everyone being here, and hopefully I'll have another one in another month or two when some new cases come down, and I'll see you all again then.

Looking Ahead

So thank you all and have a great weekend. And again, I can't thank you enough for showing up today. It's been a great day.

Gratitude Towards Participants

I really appreciate it. Nora. Take care. Everyone else thank you again.

Appreciations for Participation

Take care. Thanks again for doing this on Saturday, not Sunday. And hopefully.

Completion of the Discussion

It's good to see you.

Continuing the Dialog

You got it.

Concluding Remarks

You too. It's not so long before you do another one.