IS BITCOIN JUST ANOTHER SH*TCOIN? The Aggregated Ep. 81

Space Summary

The Twitter Space IS BITCOIN JUST ANOTHER SH*TCOIN? The Aggregated Ep. 81 hosted by QuickswapDEX. In the discussion around 'Is Bitcoin Just Another Sh*tcoin?' within DeFi ecosystems, the space delved into Bitcoin's role, challenges, and opportunities within decentralized finance, particularly on Polygon 2.0. Emphasizing community engagement, regulatory compliance, and technological adaptability, experts explored strategic approaches to integrate Bitcoin effectively into DeFi projects. The conversation highlighted market trends, investor sentiment, and future prospects for Bitcoin in the evolving DeFi landscape, envisioning continued innovation and collaboration to enhance Bitcoin's utility and scalability within decentralized finance applications.

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Questions

Q: How does Polygon 2.0 influence the DeFi sector?
A: Polygon 2.0 plays a crucial role in enhancing scalability, interoperability, and usability for decentralized finance applications.

Q: What challenges does Bitcoin face in the decentralized finance ecosystem?
A: Bitcoin encounters hurdles related to speed, scalability, and interoperability when interacting with DeFi protocols.

Q: Why is community involvement vital for Bitcoin's DeFi integration?
A: Community engagement fosters adoption, innovation, and resilience for Bitcoin within the evolving DeFi landscape.

Q: How can DeFi projects leverage Bitcoin's liquidity?
A: DeFi platforms can tap into Bitcoin's large liquidity pool by offering innovative services like lending, borrowing, and yield farming.

Q: What are the strategic approaches to address Bitcoin's challenges in DeFi?
A: Developing layer 2 solutions, cross-chain bridges, and decentralized exchanges can enhance Bitcoin's utility in DeFi applications.

Q: What role does regulation play in Bitcoin's participation in DeFi?
A: Regulatory clarity and compliance frameworks are essential for ensuring Bitcoin's seamless integration and adoption in decentralized finance platforms.

Q: How does investor sentiment affect Bitcoin's positioning in DeFi projects?
A: Positive sentiment can attract more users and investments to Bitcoin-focused DeFi initiatives, contributing to its success and recognition in the space.

Q: What are the benefits of incorporating Bitcoin into DeFi projects?
A: Bitcoin's inclusion can enhance diversification, liquidity, and asset security within decentralized finance applications.

Q: How can traditional crypto assets like Bitcoin adapt to DeFi's evolving landscape?
A: By embracing technological advancements and DeFi innovations, Bitcoin can stay relevant and competitive in the rapidly changing digital finance ecosystem.

Q: What future trends do experts foresee for Bitcoin within DeFi on Polygon 2.0?
A: Anticipated trends include enhanced cross-chain capabilities, improved user experiences, and increased collaboration between Bitcoin and DeFi protocols.

Highlights

Time: 00:15:42
Bitcoin's Role in DeFi Evolution Analyzing the challenges and opportunities of integrating Bitcoin within decentralized finance platforms.

Time: 00:25:18
Polygon 2.0's Impact on DeFi Exploring how Polygon 2.0 enhances scalability, speed, and affordability for DeFi applications.

Time: 00:35:55
Regulatory Landscape for Bitcoin in DeFi Discussing the regulatory considerations and compliance requirements for utilizing Bitcoin in decentralized finance projects.

Time: 00:45:29
Community Engagement for Bitcoin Emphasizing the importance of community participation in driving Bitcoin's adoption and relevance in the DeFi space.

Time: 00:55:10
Bitcoin's Technological Adaptation in DeFi Exploring solutions and advancements to address Bitcoin's technological limitations within decentralized finance ecosystems.

Time: 01:05:45
Market Trends Impacting Bitcoin in DeFi Analyzing how market trends and investor sentiment influence Bitcoin's performance and acceptance in DeFi projects.

Time: 01:15:22
Future Prospects of Bitcoin in DeFi Envisioning the potential developments and collaborations involving Bitcoin within the decentralized finance landscape on Polygon 2.0.

Time: 01:25:17
Strategies for Bitcoin's DeFi Integration Detailing strategic approaches to enhance Bitcoin's utility, liquidity, and interoperability within DeFi initiatives.

Time: 01:35:40
Risk Management for Bitcoin in DeFi Addressing the risks and rewards associated with incorporating Bitcoin into decentralized finance projects.

Time: 01:45:59
Innovative Solutions for Bitcoin's DeFi Participation Exploring innovative solutions and technologies to optimize Bitcoin's role and functionalities in the DeFi ecosystem.

Key Takeaways

• Evaluating Bitcoin's role as a traditional cryptocurrency in a DeFi-driven environment.
• The significance of Polygon 2.0 in shaping the future of decentralized finance.
• Challenges and opportunities in incorporating Bitcoin within the DeFi ecosystem.
• The impact of market trends and investor sentiment on Bitcoin's reputation.
• Strategies to integrate Bitcoin effectively into the evolving DeFi landscape.
• Understanding the potential risks and rewards associated with Bitcoin in DeFi projects.
• Exploring the scalability solutions for Bitcoin within the Polygon network.
• The importance of community engagement for Bitcoin's relevance in the DeFi space.
• Adapting traditional crypto assets like Bitcoin to meet DeFi's technological demands.
• Navigating regulatory considerations and compliance hurdles for Bitcoin in DeFi.

Behind the Mic

Introduction and Show Kick-off

Hey, everybody. How's it going? Looks like there's a bit of feedback there, brother. All right, guys, we're just getting everybody on stage. We'll play song, then we're going to kick off the weekend. You gotta. Bitcoins above 66. Let's go. All right, it's episode 81, guys. Am I coming in clear? Yep, you're good. All right, got a new setup here. Been testing it up. Can you guys hear this? Beautiful. Got some sound effects. All right, I'm ready for this. Episode 81. Bitcoins above 66k. Guys, I'm sick today, but this is a bitcoin show. This is rock's favorite. I am. I. Is it okay if I say it's your favorite topic? Because I couldn't miss this because I knew it was going to be a big show. There's a bunch of really awesome people here. We're oversubscribed for the show and didn't want to miss this. So I'm ready. I'm also sick. We're both sick. I'm sick from token 2049, but let's do this. Wouldn't miss it for the world. This is the first time that we're both sick. It's like crazy. And I didn't even know if you were going to show up today.

Panel Introduction and Setup

So good times. But I think we can do this. This is going to be a fun show. Is bitcoin just another crap coin? That's the title, and I guess we're going to find out today. So. Yeah. Rock, do you have anything you want to catch up on, anything before we jump right into the, you know, the regular show stuff? No, my voice is a little messed up, so I'm going to save my voice for the good stuff. All right, let's do this. Well, everyone, this shows for everyone. We're here to unite the blockchain industry under the banner of infinite scalability and unified liquidity. Welcome to the aggregated. Now, first of all, I want to introduce everyone on the panel, so we'll go one by one. I usually just go left to right and just take like 30 seconds, please. You know, around 30 seconds, guys, because we want to go quickly because after the introductions, we're going to jump into the meat of the conversations. So it's a free flowing conversation. If you. This is the first time you've joined the aggregated. You don't have to raise your hand. You can jump in. It's like we're all around a big table. So I'll dive in here, but let's do a little icebreaker as well.

Introducing the Panelists

So introduce yourself. 30 seconds of introduce introductions, and then tell me, will bitcoin or ethereum outperform over the next six months? You can just give, you know, which one you think is going to outperform. So I'll go ahead and hand the mic on over to Adrian. Hey, there. Well, Adrian's doing tricks. I'm teacher at a market technician. People know me as crypto burp, degenerate trader, full time trader since 2017. You know, I'm really happy that CZ is getting released from jail today. That's on a fun note. On a serious note, business note, 80% of the business web three incubator that we are running for early web three projects, 20% is community driven, and that is very much seasonal. So we are looking forward to welcoming all those incredible, you know, thousands and thousands of traders to the. To our community in the coming months. Basically, because crypto is about to lift off. Institutions know it, Larry think knows it, Blackrock knows it, ETF's providers know it, and it's just retail waiting for catch up, and I'm here for it. Otherwise, bitcoin. I'm a bitcoin guy. 80% of my holdings right now for. The buy and hold or in bitcoin.

Looking Ahead in the Bitcoin Landscape

For the crypto digital assets. And I cannot wait more. Basically, for the upcoming six to twelve months, it should be spectacular, stellar repetition of what we saw in 2021, except that this time we are so much bigger and we have institutions on our side, so I cannot fucking look it forward. I really looking forward to it. Let's go. So big bitcoin. Vote for bitcoin. And do you have a link for your trading channel? Do I have a walk in? So, for the. For the trading platform, do you have a link for that? So we can throw it in the jumbotron? Maybe like a tweet? Yeah, yeah, hold on. So many. Yeah. If you find one across the show. At the burp nest, you know, I'm just gonna find some tweets, one or two. Otherwise, you know, anybody can go to. My, like, my Twitter account comes with. A blue check mark and I. Sounds good.

Engagement and Context

All right. Yeah, Darren, if you can. If you can find one on his account. And let's. Let's put something on the jumbotron. It sounds awesome. I think, you know, it's. We got to get everyone ready for this next leg of the bull market. I do believe it's coming. I've been saying this for months. Been putting out my analysis and I think it's here. It's now or never. So awesome to have you here, Adrian, and can't wait to pick your brain. Let me pass the mic on over to ZKBTC. Hello. I apologize in advance if I caught out. My connection has been giving me issues today. Hopefully I'm loud and clear for now. Yes, you sound good. Sound awesome, actually. Where you, where are you coming from? I'm in Dubai, but I'm using some kind of mobile hotspot wifi thing, so it often gives me as long as it's good for now, that's good. So, hey guys, I'm Shane from ZKBTC. I'm also the president of Luna digital assets, who I'm sure you're all familiar with.

Evolving Bitcoin and Ethereum Narratives

You may be familiar. I have a sneaking suspicion with some of the projects that we've incubated before, including Polygon, Quickswap, Dogechain, and plenty of others as well. We're now incubating ZK BTC, which is a layer two EVM ecosystem for the broader bitcoin community, with a core goal of providing a whole new world of functionality and use cases for all bitcoin native assets, including BTC. But ordinals runes BRC 20 tokens as well, making some phenomenal progress. We already have 70 plus ecosystem projects lined up to join us on the chain, and this is kind of pre push. We're sort of still in semi stealth mode, but the reception from the EVM side, a lot of polygon projects as well. Super keen on getting involved in the bitcoin innovation scene, which has been really exciting to see. So yeah, I should mention that we'll be based on polygon CDK on the EVM side. And I say layer two, even though all these chains right now are side chains, technically I say layer two because we'll be a strict layer two to Ethereum from launch, thanks to polygon CDK, and we're actively working on ZK roll ups to bitcoin as well.

Market Perspectives on Bitcoin and Ethereum

So we'll be a true layer two to bitcoin also a little bit further down the evolutionary path. So yeah, really excited to be merging the worlds of using Polygon tech to merge the worlds of the EVM side and all the builders that are getting really excited to merge into bitcoin and join them with the bitcoin community and the bitcoin assets. And I'm really excited to see what we can do there. So, yeah, to answer the question, will BTC or ETH outperform the rest of the cycle? It's a difficult one. I think bitcoin is probably going to outperform in terms of stealing the spotlight like it has done the last year. Plus, price wise, I'm not sure it's difficult. I think maybe Ethereum may, by the end of the cycle, outperform a little bit price wise. But again, I think in terms of the spotlight, I think bitcoin's got that solidly through this whole cycle. And I think a lot of the focus and the attention will be on not just bitcoin BTC, but I think the broader bitcoin ecosystem and community. I think a lot of the attention is going to stay there.

Diverse Opinions and Insights

Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, I hear you on that and excited to hear more from you today as well. Shane, excited for ZK BTC, of course, and great to have you here. I'm going to go ahead and pass the mic on over to Jesus. All right, thank you for having me on. I'm resident Crypto Gamer, the best blockchain gamer on the entire planet. Have never lost a tournament, have only won. Have also gotten a degree in economics. I spent four years on the blockchain. On the blockchain. This is verified by my obsessive nature of looking at screens all day and my red eyes. I spend a lot of time playing. Crypto games, talking to crypto gaming teams, just covering the space overall, in terms of, like, what's going on within the space in crypto gaming, it feels like the only one that can actually put in the walk. The walk and the talk. The talk is going to be me.

Trends in the Ethereum and Bitcoin Ecosystem

So I cover it every single day. Get the best people on board. Also, in terms of the question, bitcoin, ethereum, it's very obvious ethereum is falling off their bozos. We get a lot of poems from Vitalik, I hear Sui Solana, the open network, they're all taking up market share. So a sad day for ethereum. They're still going to pump because everything's going to pump the bitcoin. Of course. Daddy bitcoin is going to lead us to Valhalla, daddy. Bitcoin, Deval hollow. All right. All right. All right. I love your energy, man. I love it. You're kicking this weekend off really strong. Great to have you here. Jesus. And gaming, man. I love gaming. I don't get enough time, but I love gaming. So I definitely. Everybody follow Asus. There's always time to feed your addiction. To feed your addiction. Yep, good times.

Conclusion and Looking Forward

All right, well, great to have you here. Can't wait to pick your brain and, everyone give Asus a follow. That's some great energy. All right, let's go ahead and pass the mic on over to Zulu. Oh, come on. You're gonna make me go after cocaine bear here. That's not fair. Oh, I'm so happy you didn't call me. I was like, bruh? Yeah. All right, so I'm Luke. I'm one of the co founders of Zulu Network. We are a bitcoin layer two, specifically optimized for DPN, decentralized physical infrastructure networks with a special focus on tokenized computing power. Yeah, so we're going to bring tokenized computing power, physical infrastructure, all of that secured by the OG daddy bitcoin, the number one crypto, the Ogden, dedicated to fostering a decentralized economy. So we're empowering users to utilize their money and resources in ways that just never were possible for. And, yeah, to your question, I mean, of course, you know, I'm just some random Degen, so not financial advice or anything, but, you know, I'm building on bitcoin because I believe in bitcoin.

Self Interest in Cryptocurrency

You just trust that everyone's own self interest is going to make it work the way it's supposed to. If you have the most computing power, and unless you have 51%, right, it's. More profitable for you to behave honestly. Than to try to exploit. Right. And even if you do have 51%, you do a double spend and then everyone realizes you can do this and no one wants to use it anymore. Right. So you've gotten like this one off transaction. What's the point of that? If you just mined it eventually, it would have made a lot more money. So I think actually the friends and enemies thing, like calling it the currency of enemies, makes the most sense.

The Nature of Money

It turns enemies into honest actors. And that's why I think, you know, it's the ultimate form of money. There is no other currency on the planet that can be used as the money of friends and enemies, which is what you have to have for a global reserve currency. The US dollar is the. What about XRP? I don't even see how XRP cyber. Currency, that will be accepted by. Yeah, we have a couple people talking rocket, I apologize because I interrupted with that, you know, the audit. No worries. Yeah, I don't.

US Dollar and Its Influence

Think. I won't waste my time answering it, but. So, yeah, like the US dollar, the problem, I'll give you the problems with other currencies that people may think could work and then you'll see that bitcoin is the only answer. So with the US dollar, the problem is the US has taken advantage and weaponized it. They've done used sanctions as, like, they get annoyed with someone. I mean, at first, sanctions were a very, you know, they would only use it for very important things. You know, we're in a war, we might sanction someone. Now they just, they sanction you.

Consequences of Sanctions

If you just look at them wrong, you know, if you say something wrong about the US, they might sanction you. And if, and then if you do business with a country that is sanctioned, they will sanction you. And they've used, they've overused and abused this power. And what that's done is it's left lots of countries, almost all countries, thinking, hey, maybe we need an alternative here. We need to hedge ourselves because the US has full control over the entire world banking system. And yeah, maybe right now, they're sanctioning North Korea, or they're sanctioning Russia. But what happens if they come for me next?

Global Currency Concerns

Whatever country you are, even if you're a friend of the US, what if you disagree with them on something? Are you next? Will you be frozen? Will your bonds be taken? Will your gold be taken? The US took everyone's gold, basically, after World War Two. We said, hey, come put it. During. During the war, when Hitler was rampaging through the world, the US said, hey, we're the safe haven. Put your gold here. We'll protect it for you here, and we'll give you these nice, you know, paper dollars.

Trust in the US System

And anytime you want your gold, you come back and get it. We're right here. You could trust us. We're the US. We're trustable. And then in 71 or two, Nixon closed, temporarily suspended the gold window. And he attributed that to, basically, he said there was these speculators, these dollar and gold speculators are manipulating the market, so we got to temporarily freeze the window. And he took everyone's gold base. Basically, that's what happened there. He said, we're not giving your gold. Keep your paper dollars.

Impact of Gold Suspension

And then that way, we could print more dollars and not have to be tied to gold. And, you know, they were basically stuck to gold, and people suspected that they were printing more than they had. And so that's why the dollar doesn't work. There's a. By Julian Assange, it's every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in his presence, and thereby eventually lose all ability to defend ourselves and those we love. And that's basically what happened when everyone took, you know, basically the us government took all of the gold. I like that.

The Viability of Gold

And that leads me to the next best currency that could work globally. That doesn't. Is gold. And it doesn't work for the reason I just described. Because gold requires a central custodian to transact globally, you cannot send pallets of gold globally to do transactions real quick. So I know you're finishing the gold part, but in. In this, explanation that you're giving, can you give your opinion on a gold back crypto currency as well? Because that's. That's part of my question, but, yeah, I know you're finishing on just like, you know, traditional gold. Yeah, that's a good question.

Central Custodian Problem

So that it's perfectly another transition there, which is that, yeah, gold needs a central custodian to transact. The problem with that is, as I just explained in my example that when you have a central custodian, something may go wrong. They might not act exactly the way you hoped they would act. And we had what people would argue is the best custodian in the world for gold was the US. And they fucked everybody, they cheated everybody. And I'm here in the US, and I'm a patriot and I love this country. But we rugged everybody, we said, give us your gold.

Mismanagement of Trust

Don't worry, guys, we got you. We're the US. We're noble, we're virtuous. We'll protect you against people like Hitler, and we will hold your gold. You'll be safe. Hitler went through and killed people to take their gold. We just tricked them into sending it to us and giving them paper that is now against the gold that originally was given is virtually worthless. And so now going to, can we have gold backed cryptos? Yes, we certainly can. And I think we should. And I'm actually a big fan of these, and I think that I would much rather see, I mean, you could have countries issue these.

The Operations of Digital Currencies

I think that's cool. I wouldn't fully trust them. But if they can compete in a free market, I think we may get some good results. Actually better than when countries have monopolies on things like fiat currencies and like gold backed notes. But if we could have individual companies, if for example, Brics or, you know, dare I say, Blackrock or whatever, JP Morgan, if they started issuing gold backed cryptocurrencies and they competed in a free market and they had audited reserves, and you would still have to know that this is a risk, just like when you hold money in any bank or with any third party custodian. But over time, people can build trust.

The Future of Bitcoin and Gold

Some will collapse, some will not. But at the end of the day, why deal with that when you have bitcoin here? That that cannot happen. You don't need anyone to prove reserves. The blockchain is right there, fully audited for all of us to see, and you have optionality. You can choose, do I want to hold my bitcoin myself as a country or as a bank? Or do I want to hold it with the custodian if I want to hold it with a custodian? Because there are benefits that come with custodial ship, including you can use it as collateral for loans. Maybe you just don't want to worry about your private keys.

Decentralization and Trust in Bitcoin

Maybe these custodians are just better at holding it than you think you are. Whatever. There's reasons to have custodians, but the cool thing about bitcoin is it has optionality. Gold doesn't have optionality. Gold has to be held by a custodian. And custodians are fallible. They're humans at their core, their businesses, and they can fall and will fall over enough time. So it is that decentralization aspect that you think kind of trumps all the other options. I think that's basically what you're getting at. But I'll go ahead and you need.

The State of Current Currencies

Something everyone can agree. Sorry? Yeah. No saying you need something all governments can agree on. Because the problem right now that's happening with the US, that other governments are no longer trusting or agreeing on the us dollar. You need something all governments can trust, all governments can agree on. That cannot be ethereum, because if it is ethereum, for example, right now, and the US gets pissed off at China, they will contact Lido and Coinbase and Kraken and maybe binance us. And these four guys basically control 51% of the stake on the network, and they will tell them to stop accepting any transactions coming from, let's say, addresses related to the chinese government.

US Influence and Blockchain Transactions

So the chinese government wouldn't even go into, in the first place in accepting ethereum as a global reserve currency. But any blockchain like bitcoin that utilizes proof of work, everyone will accept it, because no matter what you do, you will never be able to sanction and stop everyone. You, let's say you control 51% of the mining power, you might be able to slow them down. Worst case scenario, you might be able to slow them down at the cost of billions of dollars on your end. So bitcoin has a higher chance, or has the only chance of being accepted as a reserve currency, because it has become this enormous proof of work, this enormous energy network that is super hard to control, that everyone can trust.

Governmental Concerns About Privacy

And when it comes to government, there is also one concern that someone pointed out earlier, that everything on a blockchain is public. And governments, of course, don't want other governments to know what they are doing. But that can be mitigated. It can be mitigated through centralized solutions and through decentralized solutions. We already have privacy layers, and we can integrate those into bitcoin or have them as sidechains to bitcoin once we've implemented trustless bridging. So you have a network and an asset that everyone trusts, that everyone knows that another country cannot freeze them.

The Future of Currency

And that's basically why gold was used in the first place, because it's a physical material another government can't freeze for you. They'd have to come and steal it from you. And the same thing applies to bitcoin. They'd have to come and steal it from you. Except with bitcoin, it's even harder. You can burn your private keys and basically tell them, fuck you. Like, if you invade me and you win now you can't even steal my bitcoin. So bitcoin anyway is superior to gold in that. And of course, the ability to transfer bitcoin around is very important.

Transaction Fees and Usability

And governments will not care of. The transaction fee is $50 on the blockchain. If the government is dealing a deal on the bitcoin blockchain, they're dealing in billions of dollars, basically, and they don't care about slightly high transaction fees. Let's say the cost of the transaction fees is worth it with the security and the trustlessness that comes with bitcoin. And. Bitcoin right now. I mean, if you go through, like, state channels, you just do like, lightning network. Just never set, like, settle it later on, right?

Benefits of Bitcoin's Protocols

So, like, let's say, for example, you can do 100 million transactions on bitcoin through the lightning network and just never have it settle until later on. Of course, you know, they, since they are a bigger entity, they could say, hey, look, we're going to wait for these transactions similar to, like, the files that are going to be, like, declassified. We're going to wait 20 years because we have enough liquidity in order to transact back and forth. I think there's also a benefit to the bitcoin protocols. Resilience to change.

User Experience and Education

You know, no government's going to adopt a. A protocol that a couple of people on Twitter can decide that we're going to get a protocol upgrade in six months and change this and that and the token emissions and this and that. I think the fact that bitcoin has shown it's so hard to change the core protocol, and we'll see if bitcoin survives. The us government coming in and saying it wants to change and it'll use it. But if anything's going to be resilient enough to change, to be trusted as a true digital gold, it is going to be bitcoin.

The Potential For Bitcoin Interoperability

Yeah. And it looks like we have. Oh, sorry, rock. Just real quick there. I'm reading in the comments, and guys, if you guys have any questions, please, I mean, you have a chance to speak to some of the, probably the biggest and brightest bitcoin mines. Some of the biggest, brightest bitcoin mines in this space. So if you have any questions, please drop it in the comments and I'll try to read them. But it looks like there is some consensus here with a lot of what you guys are saying.

Adoption Across Platforms

I see Paul Denison here basically agreeing with bitcoin, not being able to be stopped because of the decentralization aspect. And he's saying here, bitcoin allows capitalism to reign supreme forever and ever. That's an interesting take, but I just had to shout him out. And a lot of these comments here that are coming in. Rocky, I think you were going to say something. Yeah, just to go back to your point of these gold backed cryptocurrencies. So, yeah, I do think that there's something really cool here. And this really could give gold a facelift.

Innovation and Integration in Cryptocurrency

This is one of the most bullish things for gold, I think, is you can now digitize it. But again, you require that custodian now going to the BriCS nations, would they do something like this? Now they're talking about a commodities backed cryptocurrency. Now they're saying that this could be backed by gold, oil, wheat, different commodities. I really hesitate to see how this would work. How are you going to have a bunch of countries come together who are basically enemies? Many of these, they are just friends because they have a common obstacle, I don't want to say enemy in the US because some of them are relatively, okay, friendly with the US, but they have an obstacle with the US and that's that it holds the world reserve currency and that it could freeze everyone at any time.

Complications In Currency Agreements

And so I have a hard time seeing how these BRICS nations, BRICs plus now, so there's like, what is it, eight or nine nations, I have a hard time seeing how they will do this. How will they come together and decide, oh, you know, Russia, we want to print a little more right now. We're having a crisis. We need to print a little more. And China says, well, no, no, you can't print, you can't just print more. If you print more, you're going to inflate the rest of us. Okay, well, how do we agree on who can print more at any given time if we're issuing this token, if you have say, if all of them can issue the token, let's say all of the BRICS nations have some power to issue, or maybe just the most powerful ones control it or something.

Challenges of Multi-Nation Cooperation

And they say, oh, if we have enough gold or oil or wheat that we can issue some of these tokens. Okay, are they each going to be auditing of all these, say, nine Brics nations? Are they each going to be auditing how much of these commodities each other have? Constantly. It's just. It's just silly. There's no way to do this. I'll go ahead and just restate it. Rock, I see you're joining us again. Great to. Great to. I can't lose you, man, because you're the bitcoin guy, and you got.

Exploring the Uses of Bitcoin

I mean, I'm not. So. But here's a question. What are some blockchain use cases that shouldn't be built within other ecosystems, but could be built on bitcoin? And again, maybe you disagree with this. You think it's just bitcoin is going to be able to build all the same things that other ecosystems are? Or is there something that you think that bitcoin specifically will outshine all these other ecosystems from a technological standpoint, is there a specific type of DAP or utility that can be built on bitcoin where it will really outshine other ecosystems?

Bitcoin’s Supply Chain and Improvement

So, I don't know. You guys can go wherever you like with this question. This is captain reward card, I think. I probably disagree with your question. I think that when you do the. Analysis for what the needs are for the projects and what you're doing, you're. Going to make the decision based on. The best path forward. I don't know that there is anything at all that I would say has to be built on bitcoin. I think anything that requires global, like country to country, sovereign to sovereign settlement, bitcoin is going to better.

Comparative Advantages of Bitcoin

So while you could build these things on ethereum. And it was really the only option previously. I think now for, you know, let's say, you know, the US and Russia want to settle some trade or some trade kind of surpluses or want to maybe issue a loan. Maybe there's a, maybe the IMF wants to issue a loan against, to a country and they want that country to put up reserves. I think stuff like that bitcoin would better suited for than ethereum, probably.

Specific Use Cases for Bitcoin

That's where I'm, that's where I'm trying to go rocking just to dive in a little bit deeper with you and anyone that wants to jump in after you rock, like, you know, does it make more sense to kind of give some examples? Does it make more sense to have stable coins on bitcoin versus ethereum? Or is it the same, does it make more sense to have, you know, very complex financial, like, defi systems on bitcoin rather than ethereum, you know, institution. Well, institutions, build on top of bitcoin versus ethereum, you know, because of the decentralization aspect or, you know, is there any of these things?

Potential of Bitcoin in Stable Coin Market

You know, that's what I'm trying to figure out with you guys. Like, wow, that's. Is there something that, it's a little deep. That's a good one, man. Stable coins, because right now, stable coins on ethereum can be frozen if, and if they can be frozen because they're programmed that way. And you could also program a freezable stable coin on bitcoin, by the way. So bitcoin, just building on bitcoin wouldn't inherently solve that. But what it does solve is the second layer that Ethereum can censor.

Censorship and Trust in Bitcoin Transactions

You know, transactions can be censored on Ethereum more readily than on bitcoin. That's a very interesting one. You got my brain ticking there.

Censorship-Resistant Stable Coins

Could you build less censorable, stable coins on bitcoin? I mean, you could build less censorable stable coins on Ethereum too, by the way, so. But people haven't, those haven't succeeded yet, unfortunately. When we had, you know, like terra Luna collapsing, really kind of set back these algorithmic stablecoins. So now the main stable coins that are the strongest are centralized, or they're backed by centralized stable coins, like Dai is decentralized, but I mean, not really. It's backed by centralized stable coins and other assets. And a long time ago, there was, I believe there was a hack and die was able to get that. I think it was the UK issued an order for Dai to, like, freeze funds or something. And this kind of got swept under the rug. It wasn't really talked about publicly, but basically the die, I think it was foundation voted. Basically they needed enough votes to push through that they could freeze these funds and take them.

Decentralization and Governance

And one of, they didn't have enough votes. One of the people on the foundation said, I'm not voting for this is not decentralized. I won't, I won't support this. But there was legal pressure. So what that person ended up doing was saying, I won't vote for this, but I will vote to bring in a new member to the foundation that I think would replace that person. And then that person voted to do it. So they ended up censoring the transaction. These things are concerning. I think, like Eddie said earlier, we need to focus on decentralization. If we don't, and if we're not actively vocal about it, we'll just create, we'll just recreate the same centralized systems we had before on both Ethereum and on bitcoin. You can build centralized things on bitcoin too. At least the base layer is very decentralized, but you can easily build centralized things on bitcoin. You could build freezable, stable coins, et cetera.

Centralization of Bridge Systems

Over time, you could build a centralized bridge. Yeah, all of the bridges are centralized right now, essentially to varying degrees. You have some that you can argue are more decentralized, maybe like as an example, threshold, but threshold is, and Thor chain. But yeah, I mean, that's a whole nother can of worms. But the point is, that's a can of worms. We need to fight for decentralization. We really do. And because if we don't, the people speaking here, the people listening to this space that are the 0.1 of the 0.1 percents of the people that are, you know, building this space and who actually care in the world about decentralization if we don't fight for it.

Economics of Decentralization

And if we, you know, that's why I got a little triggered earlier, Fefe, when you mentioned, you know, it sounded like a counter to the decentralization argument, but maybe I mistook that from what you were trying to follow up with. But then Aztec wanted to move us to another topic, so you didn't get a chance to reply. But I, but I think the point is we just need to fight for decentralization. If we start saying, well, maybe a little centralization is okay and well, maybe training wheels and maybe, you know, this and that, over time it just, we degrade and we degrade into centralization, just like we've degraded the traditional, you know, web two and all aspects of our life to say, basically, privacy doesn't matter anymore. That's what'll happen to centralization if we don't fight. Right.

Welcome Message and The Technical Discussion

And I just want to welcome Shirtopia, Alex damsker and portal. IOTB, we still haven't heard from you, so jump in whenever you get a chance. But again, guys, this question is a little technical, and I understand if some people might feel a little apprehensive to answer it, but it is very fascinating. You know, I'm, I'm more on the EVM side. And so I know, you know, you guys are some of the only people that we really can ask this question, too. And again, if you haven't heard the question is, what are some blockchain use cases that shouldn't be built within other ecosystems, but could be built on bitcoin? And, you know, some examples here that I was giving earlier are, you know, stable coins and stable coins, you know, should stable coins be built on a, like a more decentralized main chain?

Ethereum vs Bitcoin in Use Cases

Or is that one thing that could better on bitcoin? Or is there like complex defi solutions that will these institutions that are coming in favor bitcoin layer twos or technology, the ecosystem, because they feel like it's more decentralized? Or maybe you guys disagree with the question. We had a couple of people kind of disagree with the question. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this and kind of see where the ecosystem can shine over others. But I'm just getting your take. I'll just let this question go for a little bit longer and then we'll switch it up again. But anyone else have anything they want. To throw in, I would say the other side and say that right now, ethereum, almost every application in DeFi is better on Ethereum.

Comparative Analysis of Payment Systems

Ethereum, including bitcoin. Bitcoin as a payment is better on Ethereum right now. And I'm a huge proponent on lightning network, but. Right, really, truly, Ethereum is the biggest bitcoin l two right now. The amount of WBtC on E, on polygon. You know, I've always said ETH is a layer two or a side chain, if you want to argue that of bitcoin, and it's the largest, even much larger than lightning network, for example, by transaction volume and liquidity, that's a fair assertion. And then I would add on top of that, kind of literally and figuratively, Polygon is a layer three of bitcoin. Polygon has had billions and billions of dollars of bitcoin transacted. I mean, just on quick swap alone, which for new people here, I'm a co founder of. Yeah, so I would say Ethereum is the biggest l two of bitcoin, or side chain, and Polygon is the biggest l three.

Custodial Challenges

Now those use WBtC, which is custodial. And I went on a long rant about the problems with custodial ship, but there are also, you know, benefits to custodial ship. That's why, you know, WBTC is really so much more successful than lightning network. And I was one of the first lightning network nodes, and I'm a big fighter for the lightning network and a big supporter. But in reality, everything is better on Ethereum right now. But I think if I don't see Solana as like a true competitor to Ethereum in the long term, I think user experience will get better across all chains, and then I think Ethereum will win. I think Ethereum is a black hole that will win all that defi. Now, the one x factor there that I didn't see coming years ago when I always said that Ethereum would be the winner of Defi.

Bitcoin's Potential for a Paradigm Shift in Decentralization

The only one that could disrupt Ethereum, it really is bitcoin. And bitcoin has the liquidity and the network affected. If we can crack the code here, if we could crack the decentralized bridges, as Eddie from power chain mentioned, if we can crack defy on bitcoin, and I think it won't happen on the l one so much. I think it'll happen on the l two s. That's a whole nother question maybe to talk about. But I think if we can crack all of that, I think bitcoin is the only one that has a chance at beating Ethereum in this arena. But Ethereum, don't forget, has a seven, eight year lead on this. And that's why I also think that it's the bitcoin evM. You'll have to have Evm to compete in the bitcoin l two side chain space.

Infrastructure for a Decentralized Future

I think those, there'll be ones that aren't, of course, that will win over time, but I think that's where the low hanging fruit will be for many years. And I think the decentralized bridge. Real quick, Max, I'm sorry. Real quick, brother. I just want to shout out. Shirtopia and caggy, thank you for joining the show. Max, you were jumping. I just want to let everybody know they're here. And much love, Max. Yeah, absolutely. I was just going to throw in another interesting use case, more from the economic side. I think on Ethereum we see a lot of re staking protocols, and I don't think those shouldn't be done on ethereum, but I think bitcoin has a unique competitive advantage, one, because of the capital base, and two because from a.

Restaking Protocols and Network Security

On Ethereum, restaking, some argue, poses an existential risk to the security of the l one itself. Because you're re hypothecating that those assets locked up that are securing l one and you're using them to secure other things. And we can argue whether that's a good idea or not. But on bitcoin, you don't have that problem. And obviously you could build something on ethereum that uses native eth that's not restricted. I'm sorry, can I explain that again? You're saying restaking on Ethereum re hypothecates by restaking on bitcoin? Bitcoin does not, I mean, Babylon does. It does rehypothecate, but it doesn't re hypothecate stuff that's being used by the l one for security.

Proof of Work and Network Security

So in bitcoin, the security is from proof of work. And so if you restake bitcoin and use it to secure 100 chains, it's re hypothecated between them. But there's no existential risk to the base layer. Yeah, because there's a separation there. There's a separation between mining and the asset. And so they're using the asset to secure these other networks, but they're not using the mining, the asset could, you know, you could. This is, this goes back to the whole, this goes back to why I'm concerned about Ethereum, as in its centralization when they move to proof of stake. And guys, I'm taking the side here on this show of, you know, being more pro bitcoin and thinking bitcoin is more decentralized.

Decentralization and Centralization in Ethereum

But guys, I really love Ethereum, and I spent the last, I don't know, eight years of my life building on Ethereum and Polygon. But it does concern me that Ethereum, when it went to proof of stake, basically combined, it combined the asset ownership with the consensus. And so that's the scary part where you can get nation states that can, if Blackrock owns enough Ethereum, they can affect the network security, they can affect censorship. If Blackrock owns a ton of bitcoin, they can't do shit because the asset doesn't secure the network. But. Sorry, Maxwell, go ahead, continue. No, I think that's a great point. Yeah, I was just saying, not threatening the l one's consensus with anything you're doing with the l two.

Consensus Models and Economic Security

So you could launch a restaking protocol on Ethereum that just uses native ETH and doesn't reuse economic security from the validators. But it's not going to work because you're competing against that native yield and that's just too large of a hill to climb. But on bitcoin, since there isn't that tempting yield from being a validator, because it's all proof of work. A, it's, you know, the cost of capital is really cheap, at least right now, and you're never going to be economically disadvantaged building a restaking system that doesn't threaten the underlying consensus. So I think that's. I'm excited to see more bitcoin restaking protocols. I think there's some really cool stuff with a BiTVM that can be used to create truly non custodial, no covenant emulation required bitcoin restaking systems.

Implementation Challenges and Future Potential

And, you know, we're going to need control planes for those. And I think that can be solved by l two s. But I think the, you know, three x capital base plus the lack of existential risk to the l one is a really compelling story there. What is your percent likelihood that BiTVM will be a major part or majority part of kind of cracking a lot of these bitcoin decentralized bridging and just a lot of the bitcoin defi, et cetera, ecosystem technology pieces. Do you think BitVM is really going to be part of the answer? Or. I mean, my kind of take on BitVM is it'll be a shorter term, like a shorter medium term solution, and then that it'll get.

Short-Term vs Long-Term Solutions

It won't be relevant down the line? I think it really depends on what the bitcoin l one does. I think in the next year we're not going to see Opcat get adopted. We're definitely not going to see a ZK verification opcode. I think for certainly in the short term, BitVM is going to be, or a variant of BitVM is going to be the technology that really enables a decentralized l two ecosystem. I think we basically crack the case. On, you said what? Or ethereum is bitvmdez. I'm sorry, I was saying I think BitVM in the near term, so in the next year or so, two years, I think BitVM is going to be the solution that enables all these l two s on bitcoin.

Trustless Transactions and Future of Bitcoin

And, you know, we've basically solved the decentralized, non custodial bridging issue. You know, it's one of n, but that n can be 10,000, and they don't have to be economically staked participants. You can do set up ceremonies. So I think BitVM definitely is going to solve these issues in the short term. Long term, we'll see what bitcoin adopts on the l one. I'm not. We have. We aren't banking on the bitcoin protocol changing at all. But if it does, we'd love to see it and build around it. But, yeah, I think BitVM has solved those issues. There's still some ongoing stuff with BitVM, you know, the way they do.

Technological Challenges Ahead

Lite client emulation with superblocks has some issues, and there's. There's some ways forward to solve that. And I think l two specifically can kind of provide infrastructure to the space that solves that. And I won't dive into details there, but I think all the major issues there have been solved. It's just a matter of implementing it and auditing it. And whether we do or do not get bitcoin protocol changes, I don't think we need them to build a truly decentralized bitcoin l two ecosystem. All right, I'm gonna jump in here because my voice is shit, and I am not screaming over people.

Sick Voices and Community Spirit

Alex. Alex, are you okay? No, I'm clearly not okay. Yes, I am sick, and this is how I sound. And for my. For my subscribers who are in here, this is why we're not having a space today. But this is the best I can do. And I was asked several times to come in here, and so I'm doing this. Aztec. I heard you. You feel, like, pretty shitty also, so. You're my brother, man. We're in here powering through. Yeah, rock sick, too. This is crazy. Alex. Rock. You and I are. Yeah, we're all sick. What happened? I got banned. 2049.

Voices of Experience

And my voice is a bit shocked. It's a little better today, though. Cloud say my kids got me sick. Mandy and my oldest, I was in the space earlier, but my oldest called me, and she's like, I gotta come home after this test. And I was like. And that booted me out of the space. I was like, fuck it. And then I was like. Then I got a message saying, are you coming? Back, and I was like, okay, I'm coming back. So I sound very, like, I'm very masculine today. Do I sound very masculine today? Like, maybe you gotta listen to me more. You've got, like, mad vibes going on.

The Value of Bitcoin

You know, Madden from the Simpsons, you've. Got that kind of branch blog going on over. There. Sound like Marc's sisters, actually. Great. Great. Anyway, yeah. So for bitcoin, so, fundamentally, it's an asset that financial. The bro. Damn skirt. Shut up, man. so, So it's a financial asset, right. So what it can do that other assets can't do, fundamentally, it is the core portable asset. Right. So, what does it do that others don't do? It is something that you can cross borders with and will best maintain its value across borders.

Bitcoin's Resilience Across Borders

Right. So even though it may vary as much as other assets vary, it is most likely to maintain its value compared to other digital assets. Right. And over time, hopefully, will maintain its value better than other assets, you know, even across borders. So the idea is that if you have to liquidate assets, you liquidate them into bitcoin versus other assets, and then you're not reliant on middlemen who prey on desperation and give you very low prices on your assets as you cross borders, your money is valued lower or on your assets because you need to liquidate them.

The Value of Liquidation

Because people buy jewelry for cents on the dollar when you need to sell it, because you are fleeing a situation. Right. This has happened to people over time, countless times over thousands of years. The biggest problem has been how do you carry assets when you are going from one place to another? What is the best way to carry assets? The number one use case that bitcoin has over all other use cases. This is actually a human rights use case. Right.

Human Rights and Asset Transfer

Which is the ability to store and transfer assets, which is what you've seen in every recent war. Right. Why does bitcoin go up in periods of war, like in Afghanistan and in the Ukraine war, etcetera, is because everybody who can access it liquidates what they can and turns it into bitcoin. And if they can, they get it across the border, because that, at least that way, they're able to retain the value of something that they have. They're at their land. They can't retain necessarily. All their goods, you know, are going to be trashed in that, you know, in that wherever the war is, etcetera.

Retaining Value in Conflicts

But that, you know, that hard drive that they have, they can maintain. So, I mean, it's a very important. Right. And that's something that we have to actually look at that's a, a massive right. So I just want to kind of separate out this idea that it has to have multiple infinite other rights or other benefits to it when that one right is so incredibly important and so powerful and has nothing to do with any of these other. It has to have multiples of, you know, rate gains or things like that.

Bitcoin’s Unique Proposition

There isn't any other individual countries fiat that could guarantee that. There isn't any other asset that can guarantee that every other asset requires conversion into something else and requires a middleman. That is not what bitcoin requires. Right. So bitcoin can actually maintain its value without being a forced reduction because of someone taking advantage of desperation. And that is a really important right. Or being, you know, or they're being too much. It doesn't have to have anything else for right.

Value Beyond Speculation

It doesn't have to have anything else for it to be an extremely important asset. So before we actually say, well, it has to have 2000 other things, let's just remember that is one thing that is incredibly important. And, and everything else is kind of not even secondary, but like tertiary to that. Right. And then after that, you know, the next thing that we have to think about is the fact that a lot of the, excuse me, a lot of the, all the defi that we look at right now, that is not really defi, right.

DeFi and Asset Backing

A lot of that is really under collateralized speculation. That's not what Defi is going to be in the future. Right. DeFi is really decentralized finance. Finance is money making money using financial tools. And we're not really using financial tools. We're not using investment strategies, using things like the loans in other people's businesses and operations money isn't doing really work. And that's the piece that we're really missing right now. But it's coming.

The Future of Decentralized Finance

And we're going to be using these really powerful tools that we have of NFTs, some of the new tokens that we have. A lot of this stuff is going to be coming. And, and we're going to have real peer to peer finance. And that is actually going to take the place of a lot of actual direct loans and is going to actually power a lot of finance. So one of the things that bitcoin is going to do is actually be one of the best forms of collateral that we have. So, you know, there's a lot of new things that are going to be coming.

Innovative Financing Structures

And I talk a lot about this. I have a book on finance and Defi, if you're interested, but I talk a lot about the future of finance and the idea that we can actually have collateral and we're going to have collateralized assets that are grouped together and then basically sold in fractionalized parts. Like instead of collateralized debt obligations, those CDO's that powered the crisis of 2008, we're going to have CEO's, collateralized asset obligations that are fractionalized, empowering a future that everybody, including retail investors, are going to be able to be part of.

Risks of Traditional Financial Systems

And they don't power failure, right, because people don't fail to pay on assets. So there's a lot that's going to be coming, I think, and bitcoin is going to be part of it, but a lot of that is going to be powered on things like ethereum, just because of the nature of having the vending machine, right. You need to have like a little bit more of the, like the ability to run the kinds of complete smart contracts. And I don't want to do what a lot of people want to do, which is, you know, let's make bitcoin into another Ethereum system or whatever.

Differentiating Bitcoin and Ethereum

The reason that the people built Ethereum was because bitcoin works great and they didn't want to fuck with bitcoin, but they wanted to do more. So they left working on bitcoin to create something different, which was, you know, the vending machine concept with the smart contracts so they could do more and not fuck up bitcoin. So the concept, in my opinion, right, of trying to recreate a lot of ethereum and other ecosystems on bitcoin is a little bit misguided, just because I don't really want, I don't think that it's necessary to add so much onto bitcoin.

Integrating Bitcoin with Other Ecosystems

What I'd really like to see more is connection of bitcoin into these other ecosystems, right. I think we can bring bitcoin into the other ecosystems rather than trying to stack on top of bitcoin. Because the worst thing I think I could see would be something like bitcoin failing to work. Like to me, I really don't want to see bitcoin failing to work in some way because it's too important in a lot of ways. So anyway, that's what I have. Yeah. Keep in mind I'm so don't jump on my ass.

Fostering Decentralization

Real quick, I just want to shout out that NFT do is here also. Goat network has joined us and I think I shouted out everyone that has just recently joined us. guys, there's a couple of you that haven't spoken like portal and IOTB caggy. and then obviously some people just joined us. so I want to hear from all the gigabrains here. Rock, I know you're going to jump in after alex here. I'll just start a thread and then I want to hear from some of the new people here.

Bitcoin's Beauty and Use Cases

But I agree with alex on this, that we don't need all of these things on bitcoin. Bitcoin is beautiful just as it is, and in some ways it's almost superior because it didn't have any of these things because it focused on just being the perfect money and not compromising. Because to build a great smart contract system to build Defi, you essentially have had to compromise really to get to where we're at with ethereum. You've had a compromise for ethereum, not too badly. I think ethereum is still very decentralized, but it does have some, I going to think of how to say this without being too harsh, but it has some flaws that could be, I don't want to use the word, it's not fatal flaws, but it has some flaws that they, I think going to proof of stake was a pretty big compromise and we'll see how that plays out.

Concerns Over Future Centralization

Right now it's playing out very nicely and like a lot of my life's worth is in Ethereum. And so I hope it continues to play out nicely. But I just worry that down the line, you know, years, five years, ten years, 50 years, 100 years, you know, right now Vitalik is kind of the benevolent leader. But if Vitalik dies and you have like blackrock being the next generation, that kind of starts controlling ethereum because they end up holding the most of it. that's, there's things like that could happen.

The Threat of Centralization

Okay, the threat want to talk about is we lose. Okay, I didn't know if that was me or. Oh yeah, and right, like, but real quick, can I ask you this because like you're talking about Ethereum. You know, I've heard the word centralization been thrown around a couple people and I not as decentralized as bitcoin. And I understand a lot of things are a spectrum, but isn't proof of stake, like, isn't it, doesn't it have a greater ability to become decentralized over time than something like bitcoin?

Decentralization in Mining

That there's a high cost to build mining rigs and these huge warehouses. You know, I think, like, from a decentralized standpoint, over time, things are, you know, there's this cost for miners as well, you know, for them to break even. And I think I see that governments or very wealthy people are going to be the ones that are going to be setting up these rigs. So decentralization that we're talking about for bitcoin is mainly owned by, and I think increasingly over time by the very wealthy.

The Accessibility of Proof of Stake

And so proof of stake on the other side allows pretty much anyone with a laptop to kind of set up a node. If you have, like, in speaking for like Ethereum, like, there's different types of proof. You know, you have IBC, inter blockchain communication, the cosmos kind of world, and you also have Ethereum and you have these, but it's proof of stake. So, so if you have 35 eth, you can set up a node if you want to contribute to the network with Ethereum, you can join a pool, but generally speaking, it's very low cost. So I'm wondering, you know, in your perspective, isn't proof of stake a better system than bitcoin?

Disagreement on Systems

No. I don't know. Maybe people disagree. I wish, by the way, and I would, this is a call to action. Somebody, we need to get somebody on stage who is like, disagrees on this point and can really explain it from a technical perspective. Right now, today has been pretty much all pro, like surprisingly pro bitcoin and all, you know, all of our friends from the show are generally east builders. So I don't like this bitcoin kind of dominance we're having on this show.

The Appeal of Proof of Work

So this is a call to action. If anybody has someone out there that can argue the opposite of this and explain why, I'll be able. To do it in a second after you're done, I'll be able to jump in because I completely disagree and I have been in here, but beautiful. Thank you. All right, cool. And you're building a bitcoin, which is interesting. Well, a multi. Correct. L two. Yeah, keep going, but we'll get into it.

Competing Models in Cryptocurrency

Yes. So, okay, so here's why I disagree with your, what you're asking there or your suggestion there. Aztec proof of stake is what the big thing that they did. And I don't know why I don't hear people talk about this more, but basically what they did is they combined the asset ownership with the consensus model. And to me, that's a big no. It's a big risk. It just tends towards centralization, because money tends towards centralization. The asset ownership tends towards centralization.

The Dangers of Centralization

There's a reason that, and I don't know if this number is accurate, but I heard this yesterday on a podcast, and it was that, you know, three people in the US hold over half of the US's, like, assets, or have half. I don't know what. It was basically like Bill Gates and Elon. Look, I don't know if that's accurate, but you get the point. The point is that assets do tend to gather in big, powerful people's hands over time. Now, you know that I think that's somewhat natural. I think that's also an artifact of, like, government crony capitalism and things.

Control and Ownership

We don't need to get into that today. But the issue is that if that does tend to happen, and it does, and we've always seen this throughout history, then that means the consensus and the control of the network will also congregate into small amount of hands. And you say that you can just, oh, you need 30, 32 either whatever, to run an ethereum validator. But that's what's basically happening is like, Lido has a lot of that, a lot of those assets, and Blackrock will accumulate those assets over time, as they've done with bitcoin, like Blackrock.

Separation of Powers

And the ETF's already hold a large 5% or something of bitcoin and growing. And so with bitcoin, it doesn't matter because the asset ownership is separated. There's a separation of powers. There's a separation. It's like when we had the block size wars, there was. There's many separations of powers in bitcoin. You know, it's like the United States. That's why I always think the United States should support bitcoin more than anyone, because the United States was the first truly decentralized country in the way it had separation of powers. And bitcoin is the same thing.

Decentralized Networks

So the asset ownership is separated from the mining, is separated from the nodes. There's many separations happening there. So even if the miners have too much hash rate, they can't even control the network because the nodes can. Can basically veto their vote like they did when we had the block size debate, you know, with Segwit and Segwit two x. Go ahead. Can I just very quickly. And then I'm actually going to go, because I think I'm about to pass out. So just very quickly.

Complexities of Governance

But this is a very interesting point here, honestly, that there are so many different areas of decentralization that we don't actually talk about. And decentralization is every bottleneck that appears. And so if you talk about decentralization, it's very interesting when you talk about governance, for example, where you talk about separation of powers, but there's also an area of centralization where there are so few people who actually hold bitcoin. Like there's a concentration of bitcoin holders. It's not spread out enough. And we're going to have to think about whether or not we have to do the same basic thing that has to happen with dollars, right, or any other asset, which is true.

Concentration of Wealth

All assets do end up flowing to the rich. And that is why fundamentally it is the duty of governments. If you want your economy to flow. A good economic policy forces money into the hands of the middle class and poor, because that forces money into the economy. The wealthy have the option of giving up money or not. The poor and middle class do not. It forces money into the economy. Time you need to influence growth in the economy. The first thing that you need to do, which is not general policy, right?

Effective Economic Policies

Policy that tends to be favored is keeping money in the hands of the wealthy, because that is where elected officials come from. But policy that actually benefits the economy is forcing money into the hands of the. Wait, 1 second, 1 second. Just because I can't talk over is the, is putting it into the poor and the wealthy. So if you want something to become fluid, to have velocity, you must find a way to recirculate it. If you want something to be an asset, that's not required.

Infrastructure and Flexibility

The other interesting thing about Ethereum, particularly though, is that Ethereum had a very interesting thing that happened to it when it went to proof of stake. And this is the main point about the lack of decentralization. It made a deal, right? Remember that Ethereum fundamentally had to make a deal in order to make the proof of stake thing happen. It took six years and this deal with the validators and the layer twos in order to make it happen, because the layer twos had built up the economy and all of the people who were minors did not want to give up on, there was no incentive for them to help approve proof of stake.

The Transition to Proof of Stake

And so instead they actually put in things that throttled the ability to essentially operate as cheaply and efficiently as Ethereum could in terms of whatever, I forget. What it was called. Yeah. So fundamentally it doesn't operate as it could, that there's really not this sort of decentralized utopia in Ethereum. That doesn't mean it's bad. It just means that we have to be realistic about what's happening in these systems, right? It just means we have to look realistically and say, this is what's going on, this is what's required for these things to function.

Control and Governance Structures

And if we want to talk about making sure that the wealthiest people or the asset holders don't gain control, then we have to make sure that our ecosystems don't put votes in the hands of asset holders only. There has to be something else put in that makes sure that votes get spread out across the system, right. We have to understand how systems work and how people operate, right? Knowing that assets always end up getting concentrated. We have to make sure that if we want votes to not be concentrated, we have to insert something into the system that makes that happen.

The Process of Decentralization

So it's not about making sure that it has to always be continually decentralized or it's never going to work or whatever. Functionally, decentralization is a process. It's not one single state. So we just have to make sure that when we're thinking about building these projects, we're doing it in a way that always takes into account human nature. And we're just putting in things that say, look, I'd love to have one vote per token, but I know fundamentally that's going to turn out to be essentially like some fiefdom in the end.

Flexibility in Governance Models

So we're going to have to put in something where when it gets to be this size, we're going to have to remodel. And this is why I think a completely different regulatory system is needed because tokens function so differently than everything else, right? So I mean, fundamentally, all systems in all of blockchain are just going to need a little bit of different rules, and we have to start doing that in our own systems, put in rules that make sense, that say, look, I'd love to put in all the roles at the beginning and say they all operate this way throughout all time, but I know that the people at the beginning are not going to be the same people that operate when it gets to be a middle sized project or a giant project.

The Need for Flexibility

So I have to be flexible and allow for things to change. And I think that is really the point. If you want to make it look like the country, make it look like the Constitution, make your system flexible enough to be able to change as time. Goes on, the problem is, and with that, with what you're saying is, and that is fine, probably, for, and that's maybe stuff like that could have to happen with Ethereum because they're taking the stance of we're going to tinker, and when you tinker, you know, things will happen, and then you have to fix those things, and then you got to tinker a little more to fix those things.

Adapting to Change

And you got to keep adapting and evolving. And that's what's happened with the United States money system. And I would argue we shouldn't recreate that system. I think bitcoin, we should keep it as far away from any kind of that kind of thinking that you just described as possible. And when you say that, you know, money concentrates in the hands of some people and we got to redistribute that, I get a little worried there. I think, sure, if countries want to try to redistribute their countries wealth and get more socialist, which is what the US has done, okay, but don't do that with my money.

Funding Redistribution Concerns

Do that through votes and do that through taxes. Don't do that through hidden taxes like inflation, which is what basically, I think happens when you suggest the things that you're suggesting. And I'm pretty sure I said, actually what I said is you need velocity in order to make an economy work. Like, if you want something to turn into money, you need to give it velocity. If assets come to rest and they don't move, then there's no velocity, there's no economy, right.

Understanding Economic Velocity

That's literally what governments have to create is velocity. If money, if you want something to become money and it doesn't move through a system, money has no value. If it, if it just sits in vaults, right, doesn't do anything. It doesn't gain value. It doesn't do anything. I disagree. Money has to move. Gold does not have a high money velocity as a low money velocity.

Gold vs. Currency Dynamics

But gold has a very large value. You said value. Gold is not, gold is not the same thing as money. Gold is an asset. Money is currency, right? There are two opposite things. They have two different purposes, money and current. So currency. Currency is basically used to buy assets. Currency has value in economies by having velocity, by moving through the economy. If it doesn't move through an economy, this is why governments worry about like savings rates that are too high.

Inflation and Value Retention

For example, if people are not moving the money through the system, then the economy starts to shrink. It slows down. It has to move in order for economies to grow. This is how economics works. That has to do with taking money from. So if I have one economy. I mean, it's not in a boom. If I have one economy where people are digging holes, the government is paying people to dig holes and then fill them in, which you might as well with half of our government program.

Economic Productivity and Government Policies

That's not. No, no, no. This is not an agree or disagree. This is just how economics. Well, I disagree. I think you're wrong. So I don't think you're the world authority on how economics works out. Well, well, guys, I think we should pass the mic soon. Just, just throwing that out there because I know wanted to jump in earlier and portable. So let's finish this, though. So Keynesians would argue that exactly what you're saying.

Economics and Velocity

We need a forced money velocity, and money has no value unless it's moving. I disagree. I think an economy could have a slow money velocity, but a thoughtful, an efficient and meaningful money velocity. You know, for every dollar I move, if that dollar is used on bullshit, which is what happens in these consumer low interest rate, government manipulated economies. You have very low poor usage of money, and you have a very high velocity of money.

Wealth Accumulation and Protection

Look, you know where you have the highest velocity of money in fucking collapsing economies. We look at Weinberg, you know, Germany, look at. Look at Zimbabwe. You have the most rapid. People literally get their fucking paycheck and they spend it within the hours because they know within hours it'll be debased. And that's what you're arguing for. You may not realize, but that's what you're arguing for.

Long-Term Implications

At a slower pace. You just want a slower pace of that, a more controlled and slower forced hot potato. So she had to hop off because she's sick. And that's what she said earlier. So she actually just hopped. But, yeah, I mean, I think you guys are making good points. And I kind of. This was a really interesting kind of, like, deep dive into. Into that conversation. But I do want to hear goats.

The Role of Bitcoin in a Stable Economy

I know goat. Like, you were supposed to come in right after rock. And then, you know, there was a. There was a couple points that just were going back and forth, but I wanted to hear your take. You know, I think if we could take a little step back. We were kind of talking about bitcoin and ethereum and maybe as proof of stake, a better system. And does it have the ability, mainly because it could have the ability to be more decentralized than even bitcoin is now.

Discussions of Bitcoin’s Future

And were kind of getting different takes, and then we kind of jumped into, like, money velocity and all this stuff. But I'd love to hear your take goat. And then, and then we can change the subject if we need to. Let me just leave one last sentence with this. I would. I think an economy based on sound money, like gold or bitcoin, is a more thoughtful economy.

Thoughtful Economies

As a more. You have people who. Yes, because their asset holds value, they're not just going to spend it rapidly. Right now in the US, people spend their money rapidly because you have to. If you do not, you will be punished. You will be debased. Right. And anyone with the money to allocate knows that the poor people or the uneducated. I want to say stupid, but not stupid. The uneducated people, they don't know that.

Economic Inequality and Consequences

And so they hold dollars and they get debased and they get punished. So the poor are hurt in this situation. The rich are helped in this situation. That's why you get money concentrating in the hands of the wealthy so strongly versus previously on gold standards. So much more rapidly. Look at Covid, how much money we printed. And during that time, all the billionaires net worth went massively up during that time, even though there was nothing more being created, there was nothing more being produced.

Market Dynamics and Pandemic Impact

There was actually 95% reduction in production. Probably I'm being facetious, but anyways, I think in a bitcoin standard world, in a world where your money actually holds its value, over time, you will see people be much more thoughtful about their investments. People will take the time and they will invest in things that make more sense. They won't just rapidly invest in any shitcoin or any shit company that comes their way. That's all I have to say.

Concluding Thoughts on Investments

And I just wanted to add a. Little bit onto that per centralization. An emphasis on self custody could really cut into, say, blackrocks bitcoin holdings significantly. Some of these centralized entities are really just intermediaries for many smaller holders. Agreed. Okay, so I will jump in on this part. So let's talk about bitcoin in a couple of different ways. Number one, I think we all love it as an asset.

Bitcoin Use Cases and Potential

The idea of an economy running on bitcoin is attractive probably to most of us, if not all of us. I would say that bitcoin can have multiple use cases. However, I would also say that some people are satisfied with bitcoin as a passive asset, and some people would like to see it as an active asset. Now, again, we had briefly mentioned BTC five before as a potentially whatever.

Community Engagement and Perspectives

Maybe it's problematic, maybe not everybody likes it, but stacking sats in general or acquiring more bitcoin without needing a mining rig can be attractive. So that's kind of one point. The other point that were talking about was decentralization, right? So all things being equal, you want to move toward decentralization in whatever form. So, you know, Ethereum Max is like their version, bitcoin version.

Layer Two Networks

Bitcoin Max is like their version. And that's all fine. So, and I don't want to make this a hard plug for us. I'll just talk in general terms rather than about, I'll try anyway, rather than about what we're doing. So let's talk about how layer twos work. Okay, so every sequencer, or, sorry, every layer two network runs on what's called a sequencer. What a sequencer does is it takes transactions.

Sequencers and Transaction Processing

It batches them and orders them. It puts them in sequence. So every single layer two has one sequencer, right? And these are, I'm going to name some great projects. Arbitrum optimism. Some of the bitcoin l two s, they have one sequencer. So that means that whenever there's a transaction or a bunch of transactions that occur on the main chain, it is the foundation itself, the arbitrum foundation or whatever, they are processing the transaction.

Centralization Risks in Layer Two Systems

So they control the network, which is a centralized way to go about it, and then they get the revenue. Okay, good. So what can be proposed? I will likely say that goat network is the first btc l two to do this. But fine, it doesn't need to be about us. Let's talk in general. Decentralizing a sequencer, meaning giving up control of the network to other entities, can be a valuable thing to do.

Decentralizing Control and Building Trust

All of a sudden, you're transacting with this network. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the arbitrum foundation or any other foundation, but you're taking out of the hands of one and putting into the hands of many. You throw in slashing mechanisms and so on. So you've got some security safeguards. So that's an interesting idea. If you can decentralize the network, you can potentially create greater security, greater trust, and all that stuff.

Transforming Bitcoin's Utility

Now, let's go back to the bitcoin thing for a second. Right now, bitcoin is basically a passive asset. It's very difficult to unlock value in it unless you buy more or you mine more. But the way that a decentralized sequencer works is that every time you have transactions, you basically have different sequencers that are competing to process these transactions because there is revenue produced.

Generative Economics and Bitcoin

Now let's say you take a layer two network, and wrapped bitcoin is your currency of choice. That is what is used to pay gas. So all of a sudden, if one of the many sequencers, sequencer node operators, processes a transaction, they're actually earning, which occurs in bitcoin. They're earning revenue in bitcoin as well. So you're actually starting this very interesting flywheel. You get a stake to bitcoin is the way that you accomplish.

Democratizing Access to Stake

You become a sequencer basically by proof of stake. So you stake, let's call it 100 BTC. That BTC is instantly installed into the network. It becomes liquidity upfront. That informs the transactions that are thrown off in bitcoin. You're making revenue in bitcoin, and then you could do all kinds of kooky stuff. You can get into pendle type of stuff, you can decompose it, you can do whatever you want to do.

Engagement and Bitcoin's Future

But fundamentally, whatever level of engagement you want to be involved in with BTC, the two things you want to do are, number one, you want to create a decentralized environment for the network so that it's trusted. Okay, well, you get a whole bunch of sequencers, dozens, instead of one foundation. That's great. And number two, you're transforming bitcoin from something that you can either hold or mine, and that's it, to something that can power an entire ecosystem, and you can grow your bag just by processing transactions.

Economic Stake Distribution and Trust

And the last thing that I'll say is that even if you have five or ten or even 100 sequencer node operators, that's not necessarily, well, what do you call it? It's not necessarily a kingship, but it's still an oligarchy, right? It's still a small number of stakeholders. But if you have a scenario where anybody can stake into one of the sequencers, even if they've got $500 worth of bitcoin, and they can earn yield the same way that a whale can, all of a sudden you create a decentralized economy where anybody can make money off of their bitcoin and there is trust involved in the network.

Vision for a Decentralized Future

That's our vision, that's what we see. It combines the best of the bitcoin world, which is the absolute king of assets, and fantastic. We all want more of it with the best ideas of Ethereum, which is proof of stake, but done in a way that really spreads it out so that anybody, guppies or whales, can make money. I think there's also, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and that for those reasons, Hemi is going in kind of a similar direction with, you know, borrowing bitcoin's proof of work to secure itself, but then separating out block creation into an economically bonded system.

The Value of Proof of Work

And I think there's a separation to make between is bitcoins proof of work really good and valuable compared to if bitcoin were to move to proof of stake? And I think the answer is, at least my opinion, significantly, yes. And then for new networks who want to do a bitcoin l two, or an ethereum l two, or a new l one, or whatever, does it make sense for them to adopt proof of work directly and spin up a new network of GPU miners?

Network Structures and Scaling Solutions

Or does it make sense for them to go something like proof of stake or proof of spacetime or whatever? And I think the answer there is, it makes sense to have one super network that's proof of work, highly decentralized, highly permissionless. Anyone can spin up a miner in their basement and heat their house in the winter and become part of the network. I think that's super valuable, and it gives a level of mathematical proof to the entire blockchain ecosystem that you can't get with a proof of stake network due to weak subjectivity.

Leveraging Proof of Work for New Networks

But I think now that we have that as a public good, and that bitcoins amassed that and continues to amass more of that computational power for new networks coming online, for many of them, it makes sense to go with the proof of stake model, either using, whether that's using bitcoin and making bitcoin now a yielding asset, something that can stake, whether it's using another asset, I think it's let bitcoin do the proof of work and inherit it on your chain for long term security, and then use other mechanisms for block creation, sequencing and so on.

Exploring New Alternatives

Yeah, I think. Sorry, I'll just say, despite having a different model, love that from hemi, I think that's a cool idea as well. Anything, again, that opens up opportunities to more people, whether it's in a proof of stake mechanism or in the simplifying or democratizing proof of work, is awesome. So just thumbs up on that. That's all. Yeah. Bitcoin is the. The king of proof of work, and Ethereum is the king of proof of stake.

Current Trends in Blockchain Projects

And you can now, if you're a project or a chain building, you're probably better off. And this is where I was, this was my thesis for why Ethereum would win for so long, which is that why would you try to compete with Ethereum just use its security. And I think I answered the questions, so everybody else, if you want to jump in and share.

The Future of Ethereum and Bitcoin Layer Two Solutions

And I think a lot of l one will become l two s of Ethereum. And we already see tons of l one s that were not able to gain the traction and the mass adoption and the gravity that they needed. They're converting now to become eth, l two s, and now bitcoin l two s. So I think in the end, you'll have mostly it'll be bitcoin, and eth will be the security of all these blockchains. And then everybody else will just tag along and borrow their security. I mean, that's what you do when you launch an Ethereum token, when you launch an ERC 20 instead of launching your own chain, which is what everyone used to do, now you just launch a token on Ethereum, and you inherently get 100% of the security of Ethereum now. And so that's what's going to happen with bitcoin as well.

Importance of the Bitcoin Layer Two Ecosystem

Something I want. All right, sorry, just Jason from Kagi. Actually, something I wanted to bring up. I mean, this entire conversation today has been really interesting. We've gone from reducing the idea of bitcoin down to just basically being a really good payment railway that's reliable in terms of accounting to thinking about all these other things in terms of the economy as well as philosophy of economics. We can see from the very heated discussion just now, obviously, which I appreciate a lot. I think that was really fun, actually. But I wanted to bring up an additional topic that I think is something that I would love to hear some of the folks in this space talk about, which I think will be more fun to me, instead of having the same few folks chat about it, which is that the very topic of this space is bitcoin, just another shitcoin. And I don't think it is. But I do think that l two s will be an interesting play on whether there will be shitcoins in terms of the native tokens they release.

The Meticulous World of Bitcoin Layer Two Platforms

And I wanted to ask the l two s here, as well as other folks here, what they think, in their personal opinion, would be the differentiating factor as to why a bitcoin l two would survive. Because as of right now, based on what I just counted last week, theres at least 880 bitcoin l two s. And I wanted to hear from folks here how many will survive? Why would they survive and what they think about the entire situation. So, yeah, well, look at ethereum. How many ethereum l two s are there? If you counted all the ethereum l two s I would guess there may be hundreds or thousands even at this point. Oh, 100%, yeah. Which is why this is basically mimicking that scenario. But are the same survival conditions applying to the bitcoin l two space, or would it be different this time? Is something that I wanted to chat about, actually, which I think is very interesting.

Identifying the Factors For Success

I think it'll come down to, like, say, ten winners or something. Who knows? Maybe 20. I don't know. But I think the prize is so large and the market is so while it's congested in terms of the amount of these, the amount of successful ones and Defi built on them in TVL and volume is still very, very small as a percent of the overall bitcoin ecosystem, which. Do we still have bitcoin startup labs? No, they dropped, So, like, I like what they say. They're in the audience. I like what they say. Which is, like, if you look at the market cap of, like, ethereum versus the things built on it, they're almost equal. When you add up the things built on it versus on bitcoin, it's like the market cap of bitcoin is like 1.2 trillion, but the things built on it are like, you know, in the.

Understanding Market Dynamics and User Adoption

In the small single digit billions, which is less than, you know, 1%. So I think, yes, it's congested, but the prize is so large and it is so undecided, and we really just have no idea what's going to win. We don't even know. Will it be bit vm? Will it be something with Opcat? Will it be some kind of ZK roll up, which is what ZK BTC here is building? And how do we define winning in this context? So I don't see it as a zero sum game. Right. I think let's go to the Ethereum space for a second. And so, you know, we have some commonalities. Like, were incubated by one foundation, which first launched an ethereum, l two, a successful one, and is now launching a bitcoin l two. So we've seen it. So, like, in that space, for example, you could have, like, immutable X. Immutable X is a fantastic gaming chain, or, you know, has been.

Defining the Future of Layer Two Solutions

And they're competing against whatever, let's call it a big defi chain. So I think success can be a lot of things. I don't think it's a zero sum game, and there's a lot of room for a lot of winners. Rock correctly identifying. My God, the asset class is massive compared to what's been built. There's no really viable smart contracts yet. We're still waiting, we're still working on it. So I think it's a great opportunity for everybody on this call, along with 55 different BTcl two s that are not participating in this call to get involved, I think fundamentally you need two things, right? Number one is a hype cycle. You can have whatever Usp you want, but guess what? It's still going to be marketing. It's still going to be a great message. It's still going to be all that stuff. Stuff. And we're trying to do that. So is everybody else. And number two is a really compelling USP.

Innovations and Competitive Strategies

So what we propose is we've got this really interesting economic model which builds on sustainable yield and it's pretty cool and is related to a sequencer. Babylon might be doing something else, Merlin might be doing something else, and so on. And I think that's fine. You want users to decide that's how it's going to work. If users say that this particular model for BTCL two is more popular, then you adapt or die, and that's the way it's got to go. So I love the open market competition. I think there's. Sorry for the animal cruelty. There's a lot of ways to skin a cat. And I think it's so fun to be here at the vanguard right at the beginning of this race. You know, think about ethereum l two s in like 2020. That's where we are right now, which is really fun.

The Evolution of Bitcoin Ecosystem

I think that the bitcoin ecosystem is just barely starting to. And there's all these different projects that are going to build in different ways. And I think you're going to see a lot of like a big evolution. You know, here, we're starting here today, but, you know, people are probably in the future that want to start new bitcoin layer twos are probably going to take a piece of this project and a piece of that project and build the new bitcoin layer twos. So I think you're going to see some winners from the ogs in the bitcoin ecosystem, but then you're going to see new projects come out later on and kind of take all this stuff that's being built and build on top of that. And then. So we're not even including the guys that haven't even got here yet. It's really early for bitcoin now. I'm not an expert on bitcoin. I just know how development works. So kind of. That's my theory at least.

Investment Insights and User Engagement

And one thing I'll jump in on. So went to token, our team and, you know, we've been talking to VC's, we're opening our a round and that's great. We did our prea was fine. And what we're finding is that, you know, you could build whatever model you want to build, but it's actually going to come down to the simplest thing in the world, which is how do you get users? That's really what VC's want. See, that's what Dapps want to see. That's what everybody wants to see. And there are just not really many users of bitcoin l two s right now. We all have great ideas. Some of us aren't even launched on Mainnet and the ones that are launched on Mainnet, one in particular raised a lot of money, launched Mainnet, a lot of hype and then a lot of the users went away and I'm not going to say which one, but whatever.

The Evolution of Bitcoin and User Perceptions

So there's an opportunity there's an opportunity to get people excited and there's a lot of education to be done. If you think about the bitcoin space in general, I think we think about Maxis, we think about Michael Saylor, we think about, oh, my God, this person or entity owns a lot of bitcoin, not how can we put that bitcoin to work? And I don't know that the solution is going to be getting Michael Saylor to farm. I don't think that's going to happen necessarily. I think what you're going to see is the first wave will probably be people who are. They're moderates, they've got a bag of this, they got a bag of that. They're defi curious, they want to try this, that. But as time goes on and bitcoin becomes a more and more valuable asset, obviously the having it keeps happening, and this just becomes more and more scarce.

Navigating Trust and User Safety

How are you going to get more bitcoin? The price keeps going up, mining, so on. It's got to be BTC five, it's got to be waste on lock value and find a way to make yields. So I think that there's a real healthy and friendly competition there to find ways to just stack your bag. Everybody wants a bigger bag. How are you going to do it? Whichever networks come up with the best ideas will probably succeed. You know, I think also. I agree and. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, just to build on that, you know, a lot of these l. Two s that are coming out, you know, they're. A lot of them are built on.

The Synergy Between Layer One and Layer Two Solutions

You know, a lot of technology that, you know, we're taking pieces from different, you know, other ecosystems, like, for example, ethereum. And one of the things that you. Mentioned earlier about, like, immutable, I think. One of the things that immutable has done that has been successful as well, or what a lot of people see. It as is beautiful, is also like polygon, for example. So I think it's also going to. Be a lot of the alignment partnerships. And a matter of that strategic positioning, you know, when they do come into the ecosystem and what their niche is catering to. Because if you're just, you know, coming out here and, you know, you're, I don't know, some of these smaller chains.

The Integration of User-Friendly Solutions

That are catering towards like a smaller. Niche don't necessarily bring all the demographic. Or all the different defi users that. You'Re looking for and exactly what a. Lot of the solution of these l. Two s is supposed to be bringing. So I think it's a matter of. Aligning and how you're able to do that. And also with the over complication of whether or not you have two wallets. That are connecting, one wallet is definitely. Going to play a factor. Yeah. Welcome to the show, Ryder, great to have you here. Dustin, great to have you here. I know we're going to be kicking off the weekend in a short bit. We've been going for almost 3 hours.

The Evolution of the Cryptocurrency Conversation

Guys, this is the power hour. There is roughly 19 minutes left and I want to hear from everyone that hasn't spoken. I think we lost Ryder here, but I think I announced everyone that has joined us recently. Iotb, I see you coming off the mic. Do you want to add something or can I ask you a new question? Is IOtb speaking? Mike? Jack wants it. I can't hear him either. I hear. I hear portal. I think Max just spoke. Okay. Iot b, we can't hear you, brother. If you want to drop, we'll bring you right back up. I apologize. He's probably just rugged here. While we're waiting for him, just wanted to add a small note.

The Dynamic Nature of Bitcoin Investment Strategies

There's one more way to gain bitcoin. For as long as there's centralized bitcoin repositories like bridges, hackers can just steal it instead of buying it or mining it. Theft is the way, as always. Good point. That's horrible. Network to multiple other blockchains. Once you have that aggregated layer, like bridges and everything, and then all of a sudden, you just have one bad actor, and they would start being able to funnel in one direction, basically funnel into bitcoin, not funnel out of bitcoin. Or with a bad actor, just funneling to themselves. Yeah, I mean, bridge security is always going to be an issue if you're dealing with any kind of network, any kind of layer to any interaction at all with blockchain and any smart contract.

Evolving User Profiles within the Bitcoin Network

There's no question about that. And there are going to be people who are just satisfied with their bag, and they're like, I don't need yield. I have all the bitcoin I need, and that's fine. And again, that's why I go back to user profiles. I don't think Michael Saylor is like, oh, my God, I got to get that 3.7% yield. I don't think it matters. I think it matters to regular folks who have $6,000 worth of bitcoin and would like to make more. They're probably willing to take that bridge risk for the higher yield. And it's okay to have different user profiles, and it's okay to think about the asset differently as well. Bitcoin is many things to many people.

Institutional Adoption and Strategic Perspectives

That's what makes it awesome. Yeah. However, like, I wonder if these institutional types that are acquiring all this bitcoin are trying to acquire more bitcoin than the others, and maybe that yield would be a way for them to. Obviously, they're taking loans on different things and acquiring more bitcoin or selling different assets to get more bitcoin. But yield could be that kind of way for institutions to level up. Maybe that doesn't matter, but I think that, I have a feeling that institutions will adopt DeFi at a higher rate in the future, especially like, bitcoin defi, because they hold so much bitcoin than retail. I can tell you for a fact that's the case.

The Role of Financial Products in Bitcoin's Future

I mean, like, we've had conversations with, like, well, I mean, I guess I'm lifting the kimono, but, like, we've talked to Franklin Templeton and the conversation has been pretty interesting. So, yes, of course, you know, you open up ETF's, you open up the world of bitcoin to all kinds of financial instruments. Of course, they're in competition the same way they were in competition, like during the mortgage boom of the late two thousands and whatever. Totally agree. So I think you're going to see it on the institutional side and on the retail side. Go ahead.

Yield Optimization within the Bitcoin Ecosystem

I don't think it's going to be on the ETF side, though, because they have to have it one to one, right? So that it has to be. So that's the probably the only side, but I think institutions are requiring it to be order to consolidate yield. So for example, like, let's say, for example, you know, Michael Saylor, right? He's going to have like, let's say 90% off risk, which is just holding bitcoin in a private wallet, and then he's going to have 10% on risk. But then the on risk portion is like, where's the yield coming from? Is it going to be in the Defi ecosystem that's going to be on bitcoin? Or is the yield opportunities going to be on other chains?

Cross-Chain Yield Strategies and Liquidity Management

Let's say, for example, polygon, let's say, for example, you know, on Ethereum, even if you have it to where it's, you know, wrapped bitcoin with native bitcoin, once it's available on EVM compatible chains and stuff is. And then it goes on to whether it's quick swap, whether it's going to be uniswap, whichever, right? They're going to optimize for a yield structure that's going to be, they're not going to put the whole 10% bag into one protocol unless they're invested into that protocol because they know they can't get rugged, but they'll try to diversify it across multiple sectors, and that's like their on risk portion.

Yield Expectations and Future Innovations

So they're going to optimize for that extra yield. Or they'll probably look at Coinbase and say, hey, look, anyone that wants to go into an OTC portion, we have 10,000 bitcoins that we can use as liquidity that can be routed back and forth and everything. So on the centralized side, that's the custodial side, similar to like a Celsius, but not really because they kind of messed up on like how they did the lending to institutions and everything. But, you know, you have it to where you could start lending it out into other categories. So I don't think the ETF's like by itself are going to go into defi because they have to be legally backed one to one.

Exploring Institutional Strategies in Bitcoin DeFi

But the privately held ones, definitely they're going to optimize to get as much bitcoin as they could. So that's where I think that they would utilize, you know, wherever the yield is and it's also stable and it's also going to be reliable. Right. We're not going to throw 10% of the bag into Titan or any of these other ones that rugged. Wow. I agree with everything Michael just said. Mentioning a dex that isn't quick swap. I'm a company man. This is a quick swap chat. Let's keep it going.

The Future of Cross-Chain Innovations

So by the way, something I think that'll be interesting for this, for people in this space is that so? Zk BtC is already like by default using ag layer and polygon Cdk as a main component of the tech stack. Again, zkbtc, which LDA is incubating, is zk roll ups to ethereum and bitcoin, which is really interesting. I know goat is doing something kind of similar and Hemi is doing something also similar. What I would recommend for you guys and other bitcoin l two s is look at ag layer, look at polygons, cdk and ag layer, and see if it makes sense for you to plug into so that you can have trustless bridging between all eth l two s and in the future, l one s, and hopefully all bitcoin l two s.

The Necessity of Standardized Solutions

But having a standardized, trustless bridge that between all of these l two s will make, will really help make the user experience better and get us all adoption. If you are a standalone, you know, l two and you're an island, it's very hard to get adoption. But if you are working with other l two s and you guys are, you know, being able to build, for example, not just bridges in between them, so that money can flow more freely, but also cross chain composability. So cross chain defi legos. That's what Polygon is building with ag layer. And that's super important.

Enhancing User Experiences Across Platforms

Imagine having, for example, on Hemi, a native Dex, we'll call it Hemi Dex. And then having on ZK BTC, say quickswap. And now you could have on, say, goat network, some form of one inch that is taking a swap between both ZK BTC and Hemi at the same time. That's not it. So hard. My nodded so hard my head flew off its axis. The siloization fragmented. Liquidity sucks, bro. Like, I agree. I'm. Wow, that's a great speech. Fantastic.

Strategic Opportunities for Innovations

Another more thing. And the other thing. It'S not an. All or optimized all across the board, right? Like, I won't be able to find opportunities now it's all aggregated into one. No. Opening up the pool. No, you'll definitely have more opportunities. I'll give you an example. Actually. So another project that LDA is incubating is called Stratix, and it's a defi strategy marketplace, and it has cross chain defi strategies.

Cross-Chain Strategies for Enhanced Yield

And what we're finding is through using things like chain link, CCIP and others, and as ag layers built out more, that'll become a core component of it as well. What we're seeing is that if you are able to build cross chain strategies, your yields go way up because you can like the trying to find, for example, a, like, let's say you want to do like a delta neutral strategy where you're farming funding rates across perfect platforms. You go one chain and you gotta. And now you got to try to find your, you got to find somewhere where you could long an asset and then another protocol where you can short an asset and where the funding rates have an arbitrage between them, where you know, it's net positive.

Creating Opportunities Through Sophisticated Strategies

To do that one chain is actually pretty hard. There's not very many chains that have that, you know, so many purpose protocols that you can do that. But when you start going cross chain, there is massively more you can do with these strategies. So, Stratix's whole goal is to utilize all these cross chain different protocols to find better yields. So I would argue if you're very sophisticated, which you are, Michael, then you'll be able to do more with cross chain composability and better bridges, et cetera. I got a question here. Long on perks, on quickswap, and then I short on the exchange.

The Intersection of Centralized and Decentralized Practices

So you can have the delta neutral strategy. You got to really look at it. So. But that's not true defi if you're using the sex. But if you can build through ag layer. Cross chain component. True. Trustless, decentralized, true defi Legos cross chain. Now, you can build some really interesting stuff, because to do what you're saying there, people aren't going to put their money into something where they can only see the defi side of it. And they got to just trust you, bro, that you're doing the right thing on the sex side. Right now.

The Challenges and Solutions of Cross-Chain Operations

There are ways to bridge that. Like quick swap built their liquidity hub, which has solvers, which can kind of help with that, but it's not the best experience compared to if you have true cross chain composability, which will totally change the industry. And as by far the best. Real quick. So we had nft doo up here earlier, and he actually didn't get to time to speak. but he did leave us a comment. He said, bitcoin is surely one of the main narratives in this cycle.

The Bitcoin Narrative in the Current Cycle

And I have this question, and I know we only have eight minutes left and I may be opening a can of worms here. I also want to kick this over to Max because, he. He was going to say something earlier and didn't get to fire off, but, so this question, Max and anyone jump in after this. I'd also love to hear from you IoTB because we haven't heard from you, but he's saying, you know, that bitcoin is going to be one of the main narratives in this cycle. Now, you know, I'm. You guys know, I'm more of an evm guy.

Bitcoin's Position in Market Dynamics

I'm a big polygon guy, Ethereum guy. What I've seen is that this whole bitcoin narrative really kind of fired off q one this, when I was kind of, you know, pushing really hard for, like, different things that we had to. That we're incubating to raise money and things like this, it was a really fiery time for bitcoin. Since then, I've seen that this has started to dwindle, the excitement, at least from my perspective. And I'm wondering, do you guys still think that bitcoin is going to come back really strong? For instance, recently we did see ordinals and starting to fire up the top ten, at least.

Emerging Opportunities and Revitalization of Interest

And I heard from someone else earlier, you know, runes are starting to fire back up. One of the. The runes did like a five x recently, you know, but. But in your guys opinion, you know, do you think that bitcoin is going to be one of those main narratives when this super cycles, this next leg of the bitcoin bull market kicks off, do you think, or do you think other things might outshine it? Do you think it's going to come back? You know, what's your guys thought? But Max, I want to kick it to you first, I think. Absolutely.

Excitement and Innovation in the Bitcoin Space

I think there was an explosion of excitement around doing just anything new on bitcoin and so ordinals and runes, and it got tons of attention, energy, and now everyone's kind of in builder mode. So we had this explosion of what's possible and what we can do with BitVM and all these different technologies and everyone's building them and you can't really quite use most of them yet, but they're coming soon. And I think when Q four of this year. Q one of next year, when some of these things start to hit the market and be live and people can actually use them.

Bitcoin's Future Trajectory

I think that's going to be all that pent up energy that kind of exploded and then maybe to some extent died down because maybe it was a little overhyped for where the tech was and what was available at the moment. I think next three to six months, we're going to see tons of things coming out that actually do the things that people were excited about six months ago. Yeah, I think that's going to catapult bitcoin to the, if not the top of the next super cycle. Definitely very high on it.

The Dichotomy of Bitcoin's Potential

Yeah. There might also be two different questions here, like bitcoin, there's so much to be done for usability. I'm completely not on the idea that runes and ordinals are done. I think you're going to see that come back as you find better ways and more engaged communities and all that BTC fight, all that, you know, if you're talking just about asset price, the typical rotation, like, you know, from now you see BTC Moon, I think Alts will have their season. I mean, alts have been absolutely pummeled for the most part in the last while, so it'll probably rotate over there.

Building a Sustainable Ecosystem

But as far as what's being built. Oh, yeah, there's going to be so much built on bitcoin and, you know, in other ecosystems, for that matter. I hope that builder mentality stays in place regardless of how long the cycle lasts. Yeah, bitcoin is definitely going to be. Yeah, thanks. I've just been kind of lurking in this conversation because it's gone off on. A different sort of tangent that was.

Understanding the Multifaceted Nature of Bitcoin

Very focused on other sorts of things. But I'm kind of coming in here. As an artist working in the meme coin sphere on the rune side of things. And insofar as the question of, like, whether the bitcoin narrative is going to. Be, like, something that's dominant this cycle, I would say very much that's been my entire thesis this time. I'm one of those cynical ones that when I look at DeFi or I look at nfts, I look at fungible tokens and meme coins.

The Human Element of Financial Activities

To me, these are all expressions of. Something that's innate in the human nature. Which is the desire to gamble. People love to gamble, and every time and place in human history, they invented. Different ways of doing it. It's your earlier question of why bitcoin? Is there something that bitcoin can do better than other, you know, blockchain? Ecosystems aren't already doing better, you know, and I would say that, like, from my point of view, the reason why bitcoin is attractive is because it represents maybe the kind of sole place where a person can exercise their financial autonomy in a.

The Unique Position of Bitcoin in the Market

In an adversarial environment and still rest. Assured that they can maintain control over their, like, financial resources, you know? So in terms of bitcoin being a big narrative, I would say what excites me about it is that bitcoin is both simultaneously. The shiny new thing. Insofar as this is the first cycle where fungibles and nfts and defi and this kind of stuff can even exist on bitcoin, it's never been possible before. So this is like, we all know that crypto is kind of a hype driven sort of a game at a certain level.

The Past and Future of Bitcoin and DeFi

And people, the attention follows what's new and what's shiny. So bitcoin ecosystem is both new and shiny, but it's also like the oldest and most respected thing in all of crypto. In terms of crypto. Bitcoins reputation is kind of like the. Great granddaddy of them all. I'm still super pumped. People said runes were dead. People said ordinals were dead. As you mentioned just a moment ago. There'S been runes just blasting back from the lows.

The Transition and Growth of Bitcoin Projects

The one that did the five x that you mentioned was actually billion dollar cat. I've made a lot of gift content for that, but I think when you. Just look at they make these. Pie charts where you'd say, what's the percentage of TVL locked in a certain l one asset, whether it be Ethereum, Solana or bitcoin, versus what's the amount of money that's locked into fungible tokens and nfts and that kind of stuff built on top of that platform, the. Ratio is just completely absurd. I don't know how the exact numbers in front of me, but it'd be like, let's say if Solana and Ethereum are like 15 20% of the TVL is locked up in fungibles and nfts and defi and this kind of stuff, bitcoin is like, what, like 1%, half a percent?

The Liquidity Challenge in the Bitcoin Ecosystem

It's like we only need like a. Certain percentage of just a tiny sliver. Of that kind of liquidity to start flowing into the bitcoin ecosystem. We're going to see like an explosion in the market caps of the things. That are existing there, which is really interesting. I'll put on my IoT hat real quick. Michael, I just want to point out something that IOTB said really quickly, because we only have like, two minutes. But, I do find that very interesting that, you know, bitcoin has the largest market cap and so whatever everyone's building here, there's a really good chance that a lot of money flows in to the things that are being built, you know, and that's new technologies on bitcoin as well, like runes and ornaments.

The Future of Bitcoin and Decentralization

But, yeah, sorry, michael, I know you're going to say, I'll. Put on my DJ net and I'll tell you why it's such a low percentage. Until the yield is actually going to be comparable or beating Ethereum or polygon or like, you know, EVM compatible chains, liquidity won't flow over because, like, what do we do as lp providers? We look for the optimized and best yield. And now if there is. If it's on bitcoin natively, oh, hell yeah, we'll switch over for sure.

Bitcoin’s Competitive Landscape

Like, we'll be able to place money into it because it's, you know, we trust the system more. But the thing is, like, for us to look at a position, hey, look, if I'm able to place an x amount of liquidity and I'm only getting 2% on bitcoin side, well, I can go on to, you know, I can be able to use my DeFi strategies and get five to 7%, you know, on another protocol, I would actually go towards the other protocol, which is going to be on EVM compatible chains for right now. But what's going to happen is that once the yields are starting to come into the bitcoin ecosystem, you'll then start seeing that DeFi wave start to kick off.

The Creative Synergy Within Bitcoin Projects

And then afterwards, I think then after people, I don't want to say get rich, but basically there's more liquidity everywhere. You're then starting to see the creative side, which is going to be the gaming, the arts, music, fashion. That's kind of like how it also happened last cycle as well. So I also want to point something else out. Yeah, bitcoin is going to be a huge narrative. I think it always is, especially with all the buildability, you know, the innovation. That'S currently going on.

Ethereum's Strategic Position

But I do want to point something out for east that it does have going. And something to definitely not overlook is. Currently, you know, Trump and his world Liberty finance, they chose Ethereum over bitcoin. To build, like, this protocol. And, you know, like him or not, like, regardless the man is their business oriented family. And, you know, they have chosen Ethereum. To build on their protocol. And you can almost guarantee, I want to say I'm almost 90% sure that you're going to see a major flow in a really good etherium season because.

Impacts on the Market and Future Growth

Of this and the different types of. You know, investors and additional builders because they, you know, a lot of these. Guys, they build together, they invest together. And they're going to continue doing that. But yeah, just something to put in there. I know it's describing the Cabal question mark. No, they're not real. Those aren't real. It's an interesting point because there's also a lot of adoption.

Understanding the Role of Real World Assets

So real world assets is a massive category as well. Larry Fink is really bullish on real world assets. And I think when you look at Larry Fink and some of these big institutions, they're they're relatively small in the overall spectrum of things, but there is some decent sized funds that are being put on Ethereum and Polygon recently and the tech is ready for adoption, or very close in some cases, for these real world asset type opportunities. On Ethereum and Polygon.

The Future of Ethereum and Bitcoin Ecosystems

I think both ecosystems, the Ethereum and the bitcoin ecosystem, have a really successful future. And I think one of the points IOTB brought up, which I cant get over, ive thought about it many times. I think a lot of money is going to flow into these bitcoin layer twos and bitcoin defi as it springs up, because theres so much liquidity, people just holding bitcoin and its kind of untapped. They dont really have anywhere to go with it unless they want to use something a little bit more centralized right now.

The Evolution of Decentralization

But as the bitcoin side becomes, you know, more decentralized and you have these trustless bridges and all this, I mean, I think you're going to see a massive flow of liquidity coming in. So I think both sides are actually really going to be successful. I've learned a lot on this show. I know we're basically at 3 hours, rock. You probably have to go to the next show. I don't know where you want to go from here, rock, but I don't want to open up a can of worms from here, you know, because we're closing up the show probably.

Moments of Insight and Reflection

But this was a good show. A lot of really great alpha, very interesting projects building on the bitcoin side. I was really amazed to hear about, you know, some of the cool, like governance or different, strategies that some of your guys as layer twos have to kind of. It's very innovative, you know. So I learned a lot and I appreciate everyone taking the time to come out and share Alpha and talk about their project on a Friday kick off the week.

Final Thoughts and Call for Engagement

Rock. Do you have anything that you want to dive into before we close it up? Yeah, I just want to say that, you know, despite the fact that I think bitcoin will be, is the only like true candidate for world reserve currency status, I think Ethereum is going to continue to be massive. I think it's built incredible network effects as eight year lead in DeFi and it's not going anywhere. I think what will happen is you'll see a combination and through things like Polygon AG layer and other interoperability and composability, I think you'll see basically bitcoin and ethereum kind of become very intertwined.

The Interdependence of Bitcoin and Ethereum

And I don't want to use the word ancestral, but something along those lines. There'll be, everything will be. Most DeFi will involve some aspect of bitcoin and some aspect of Ethereum. I agree 100%. Portal, you have your hand up. I don't know if that's just me lagging or something, but I don't know if you have like a closing statement you wanted to make. I don't want to close the show without hearing from me.

Concluding Remarks and Acknowledgements

If you had something you wanted to. End on, it's probably just lagging. I haven't had my hand up for quite a while now. I see. It's been an excellent show. We're glad to attend. I do want to say something though. You know, I love bitcoin, I love Ethereum, I love all the cryptos. But to be competitive on the bitcoin side, like, we definitely have to have that yield portion, right?

The Challenges of Yield Generation

Because once again, my degen hat is on. And my degen hat says, chase the yield, sustainable yield, not like crazy 9000% APR yield, right, like that. You're not going to get major institutions to go into that portion. But you know, if I'm able to optimize my strategies and say, okay, maybe I can take an extra point or I two, I would definitely switch over and everything. Native, basically native bridging is going to be key though, because basically you want to make sure that it's not going to have a central point of attack.

Security and Trust in Yield Strategies

Because once again, if you're having liquidity flow in, you want to make sure that is going to be the most secure area. We don't want another bridge hack. I don't want to say the company's name, but don't even need to use. Which is for cross chain, trustless, decentralized Defi on l two is made possible via atomic swaps as well. What was that portal? I actually only caught half of it. He was saying atomic swaps.

Evolving Frameworks in Decentralized Finance

Yes. Don't even need to use bridges for. Cross chain, trustless, decentralized Defi on l two is made possible via atomic swaps. That way you keep. For the atomic swaps, though, you wouldn't be able to. You would have to switch the assets, though. So, like, I can't switch eth over to bitcoin. I would probably have to switch it into, like, litecoin or manero in order to switch it over.

The Mechanics of Cross-Chain Transactions

No, no. You can cross the atomic side. You can swap directly bitcoin for ethereum. Yep. Bitcoin to ethereum. But not ethereum to bitcoin. No. Like from that way, too. Here, come check us out. Oh, really? That's what we do. I gave you a follow, so we. Djen, we need to follow portal, guys. So, you know, follow everybody here, guys.

Conversations and Insights on New Technologies

You know, we have a lot of really cool technologies that join the show. If you just joined. There was a really extensive conversation. There was kind of philosophical conversation in the beginning, then went a little technical. then we kind of dove into, you know, the future. And. And so this was, this is definitely going to be one of those episodes where you probably want to listen back if you didn't hear the beginning.

Future Discussions and Topics of Interest

I actually had plenty more questions asked. Darren shot me a question I wanted to ask, but I, it's just, it was going to open a can of worms, so we. We have to do this again. Rock. This is a really good episode. I learned a lot. And follow everyone that has joined us today on the panel. A lot of really great technologies being built.

Reflections on the Discussion

Yes. I really gotta go. I've been holding out, but I gotta go to the next spaces. Can you guys do some audience shout outs and. And if you have time, comment reads, shout out to. Really good show, guys. Really enjoyed this. I really. There were so many things. I wish we could have gotten deeper into that, but were trying to keep it moving in the interest of time, but, yeah, really good show, guys.

Closing Remarks and Farewell

Talk to you guys soon. Bye bye, everyone. Brother. All right, Dustin, I see you here, brother. Do you want to kick off the weekend? Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Heck yeah, man. And just so you guys know Dustin wraps out everybody's name. This is. This is a massive skill. Building on the tech stack.

The Exciting Landscape of Cryptocurrency

That's a factory coin. Just another shit coin. No way we out here stacking on the sass real quick. Swapping polygon and rock in the Aztec on the aggregated. Don't get us faded portal. Talk about map tokens with the change exchange of ETH back and the fourth. You know how we sustain with ZK BTC on the games. What you say with Michael? I know your DJ boy too. What's up with you?

Opportunities for Investment and Growth

Decentral con with my homies with the Justin Woo Kaggy. You know me. What's up, Jared? I know with Julia K. She sings to like Solex and AI. You feel me? With ethos. What you know, with the Elliot, it's. I don't know how to see your name. Hopefully I didn't butcher your name. Nabala finance, that's what up.

Exploring the Future and Its Narratives

I hear what your stance on BTC, but you have a address that said dot e souvi with the noose. What's up dude? With the Allen son, just like Justin. We like deviled with the megs. What you say? With a creep. You feeling me? BTC cash on TV, TTF bot, that's your name though. I'm out here, I get it.

Underscoring the Importance of Collaboration

All my sets on the games though. Rainbow, that's your name too with the MLX, I could barely wrap your name. Slap Daddy, it's the alley ak with the Baba. Follow me. What's up? Come back and see us. Three pts m UTC on a Friday. Mister future Polygon to John Choy's a bay, that's your name too.

Anticipating Future Developments

What's the gold rush, ip nerd? I'm out here with the calmer collective and no, his name is Franz Kramer and that's your name. Let's talk about BTC. Atomic swats on the map with the cross chain. We don't want to get stuck on the rut with the interoperability we know we've feeling.

Building the Future Together

Me, we are here, we trying to get the cryptocurrencies and different blockchains and aggregated. This is how we made it. Citizen 8014 Gazoo, what's up with you with the Veno Grandica, with the summit to the 513 under listeners coming through, be sure to follow our space to give us a warm brace, hit the corner and share the space back.

A Call for Community Engagement

We coming back on the next week on aggregated stack episode 82 Bitcoin not another shit coin with the ZK. BTC coming through. What's up with you. Quick swap Polygon rock with the aztec portal. Michael and IOTB and Kaggy. What's up? We coming back to come back with the crew.

Looking Ahead to Further Conversations

03:00 p.m. uTC Friday, come back and. See you do Dustin Lee from D stor feeling me and we out here. Coming back for next week. It's a weekend and we about to throw it up. BT's going up and we out. Yeah. Let's go.