Space Summary
The Twitter Space Discussion on Objective Beauty, Truth and Goodness @CatholicFQ hosted by Architectolder. Immerse yourself in a captivating Twitter space hosted by @CatholicFQ, exploring the intricate balance between Objective Beauty, Truth, and Goodness in the realm of art and philosophy. Engage in profound discussions that transcend the visual realm, delving into the ethical and moral dimensions artistry presents. Discover the Arch10 discount offering art enthusiasts a chance to acquire meaningful artwork at a special price, fostering appreciation for the interconnectedness of aesthetics, ethics, and profound truths.
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Questions
Q: How does the concept of beauty intersect with philosophical ideals of truth and goodness?
A: Beauty serves as a gateway to deeper philosophical inquiries, bridging the connection between visual aesthetics and moral principles.
Q: Why is it essential to contemplate the interplay of aesthetics, ethics, and truth in art?
A: By engaging with these concepts, individuals can unravel the profound meanings embedded within artistic creations.
Q: In what ways can art evoke moral considerations and provoke reflective thought?
A: Art has the power to trigger ethical contemplation, prompting viewers to ponder questions of virtue and values.
Q: How can philosophical discussions enhance the appreciation of photography and visual art?
A: Philosophical insights provide a deeper context for interpreting artworks, enriching the viewer's interaction with the pieces.
Q: What role does the Arch10 discount play in fostering engagement with art and philosophy?
A: The discount incentive encourages individuals to explore and acquire art that encapsulates profound philosophical themes, making it more accessible.
Highlights
Time: 00:15:43
Intersection of Aesthetics and Ethics Delving into how aesthetics in art intersect with ethical considerations and the pursuit of truth.
Time: 00:25:21
Philosophical Reflections on Art Engaging in deep philosophical discussions surrounding the role of art in reflecting objective beauty and moral standards.
Time: 00:35:12
Artistic Expression and Moral Values Exploring how artistic creations convey moral values and provoke contemplation on goodness.
Time: 00:45:09
Arch10 Discount Offer Announcement of the special Arch10 discount code allowing art enthusiasts an exclusive discount on purchases.
Time: 00:55:37
Conversations on Objective Beauty Stimulating conversations on the concept of objective beauty and its relationship with universal truths.
Time: 01:05:54
Deep Dive into Art and Truth Analyzing the intrinsic connection between art, truth, and the pursuit of beauty in creative expressions.
Time: 01:15:28
Promotion of Meaningful Art Encouraging the appreciation and acquisition of art that reflects deep philosophical themes and aesthetic appeal.
Key Takeaways
- Insights on the interplay between Objective Beauty, Truth, and Goodness in art and philosophy.
- Exploring the significance of aesthetics and ethics in the realms of art and perception.
- Understanding how art and beauty transcend mere visual appeal to engage with deeper truths and moral values.
- The promotion of art and photography through philosophical lenses, offering a unique perspective to viewers and buyers.
- Experiencing a fusion of artistic expression and philosophical discourse through vibrant discussions on the interconnection of beauty, truth, and goodness.
- The Arch10 discount providing an opportunity for art enthusiasts to engage with and acquire meaningful artwork at a reduced price.
- Exploring the subjective and objective aspects of beauty, truth, and goodness and their implications in the creative process.
- Aesthetic experiences are enriched when intertwined with philosophical reflections on truth and morality in artistic expressions.
- Encouraging conversations around art, photography, and philosophy, fostering a deeper appreciation for the interconnectedness of these dimensions.
- Embracing the complexity of art as a medium for reflecting on fundamental human values and fostering contemplation on the essence of beauty, truth, and goodness.
Behind the Mic
Introduction and Invitation
Good morning, catholic frequency. How are you doing? I sent you the invitation to speak. Hopefully. You got it. Okay. There you go. All right. I'm waiting on jail to get in here. She's got a couple things to do, and then we'll get started. Everybody doing okay this morning?
Discussion Begins
All right, catholic frequency. say hello. There's jail. How's it going? Doing well. Doing well. Good morning. Good morning. I've had a system failure with my computer this morning, and I can't get it to come up, so we're going to have to kind of switch gears. I had a. Had a lot of notes on word. Hopefully, it'll get up here in a second. But the main thing we want to talk about is, you know, the talking points that you sent me back when. And then add a little bit of room to it. So with that, let's get started. Yeah.
Reflecting on Experience in Rome
Well, and first of all, thank you for inviting me. You were one of my spaces a while back when I went to Rome, and I don't know when we started following each other, but when I went to Rome and posting some pictures, you know, there's a couple churches I think we both love, which we'll talk about later. But. So thank you for inviting me, and thank you for coming on my. On my space before. But, you know, I'm no philosopher or anything. I'm like you. I just. I love beautiful photographs. And beauty does something to us. Right? The three transcendentals, truth, goodness and beauty. And we seem to live in a world where these things are in decline. Right. We have people that can't agree on the basic truths, you know, about gender and some of these other things, but. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to the discussion today. I think, you know, the one thing about beauty, it doesn't have to be a beautiful subject, but you can look at it and tell if it is or it isn't.
Objective Beauty and Personal Experiences
To me, you know, I don't think it needs an explanation. You've been to Rome. I've been to Rome. You can walk up and, I mean, it, like, hits you in the face everywhere you go. So, you know, I'm with you. I think that there is truth, objective truth, objective beauty, and there's goodness involved in at least beauty, and sometimes in truth, too. Doesn't always have to be. But they are the three transcendentals. And if you don't accept that as this is what it is, then that's where you get into the beauty is in the eye, the beholder crowd, and then the conversation kind of goes from there and it goes straight downhill for me. Let's just start off with it in Rome. What is your favorite place to go? Oh, an Italian restaurant.
St. Peter's Basilica
Yeah. Amen. Amen. Italian wine, man. Well, it's so hard to pick. As you know, there's over 900 churches in Rome and then you've got the great galleries and the great museums. But, I mean, I guess you have to. Don't you have to start at St. Peter's Basilica? I mean, it's the largest church in the world. It's probably the most famous. I think you have to start there. Although when I went, it wasn't the first place that I actually went to, but it's. It's the thing that, like, captivated my imagination the most. I tell people, ask me that question, and I say, well, there's St. Peter's. At St. Peter's there, you know, it's in a class by itself. I mean, it's the most overwhelmed. I think I was just walking around there.
Personal Reflections on the Pieta
I remember distinctly walking down, you know, the main aisle there, just past the, you know, Michelangelo's Pieta. And I stopped and said, I cannot believe I'm standing here. After all these years of looking at pictures of this place. I cannot believe that I'm actually standing in St. Peter's basilica. I mean, it was almost like I just almost couldn't function. It's so beautiful. There's so many things to look at. I mean, you could photograph that just the main aisle for hours and, you know, never take the same picture twice. It is, it is overwhelming. The thing that I, when I first walked in is nothing prepares you, no matter how many photographs you've seen.
The Impact of Scale and Beauty
Or, you know, a lot of people say, oh, they had midnight mass at the Christmas time and they have some video or something. You cannot prepare yourself for the scale of how small you are. I think you posted earlier today or yesterday about that. Something about the scale. The ceiling is so high and you say the main aisle, it's, it feels like, I don't know, four lane highway. I mean, it's like really wide. It's just that's what got me was the scale. Yes. You know, I like to post pictures of people standing next to a certain thing to give people the scale. The letters that go around the top of it right before the roof concaves there, they're 6ft tall. So you got. I use that as a scale to show people, like, those letters at the top are six foot tall.
Technical Difficulties and Discussion on Restoration
That guy, that's standing there is right around six foot tall. That gives you the scale. It's just. I call it cavernous. It's just unbelievable. We are having some technical difficulties. Jail can't is on the road like me, I think, and can't get. Get some stuff up. But I do have some slides. There they go. That picture that's up there now is slide one. It's of St. Peter's. It is the dome, which was designed by Michelangelo. Unfortunately, it wouldn't finish till after his death. But you can see just a little bit of the baldacino designed by Bernini, I think. The baldacino is now under renovation. Getting ready for the Jubilee next year, is that correct?
Insights into the Restoration
Yeah. When I was there last year, I got to see it, and when I was there this may, it was all covered up. It's a $750,000 restoration. That gives you an idea of how big this thing is. I think the knights of Columbus are paying for that. I mean, when you can use Michelangelo and Bernini in the same sentence, then you know, you got something special. But I stood there under that dome. Just, my knees were in such big, bad shape. I could not. They, they said, there's an elevator. You can go up so high into the dome, but then you gotta climb stairs and come up and downstairs. One day, I pretty much had to take off because my knees were in such bad shape. But that's one of my biggest regrets about going back, is I didn't get to go up on top of that cupola and look at Rome from that viewpoint.
Reflection on Personal Experience
So did you get to go up there? I did not go up there. I recommend everybody go in their twenties. Yeah, because when you're going all day long at all these churches and you do that 2345 days in a row, you know, if you're 40 or over, you know, things are. You're feeling it. You know you're feeling it, but so incredible when you come into that place. Let me ask, can I ask you about the Pieta? When you saw that, what was your first thoughts? That is like one of the most beautiful sculptures ever. And it was almost surreal because I, like I say, I couldn't believe there's some. I think it's Stendhal syndrome that you're almost overwhelmed by.
Experiencing Art and Beauty
When you walk into St. Peter's, you know, it's there to your right. And I remember us walking over there and, I mean, it was like a football scrum. I mean, it was. There were people everywhere trying to fight to get up there. So I've kind of fought my way up. What I. When at first, I was with the tour group, and I fought my way up there, took a couple pictures of it, and then I went on through the rest of the tour. Then I wound up, the tour broke up, and then I got to go by myself. So I took pictures of everything that I could. And then as they were getting ready to close, I walked back by that way, and all the crowds had disappeared, and I got to go stand in front of it.
Value of Memorable Experiences
And I remember thinking to myself, this is a special moment that you will never forget, and you're standing here with. I would give anything to go back behind the glass because for the people that don't know, the Pieta is behind a glass enclosure, this bulletproof. And somebody got some guy, it used to be out in the open. Some guy went in with a hammer and took. Hit it, like 1520 times, broke part of the arm off, and they. They restored it. But, you can't get back to it close enough touch because it's behind the enclosure. I think there is a tour that you can actually take that takes you back there. I would love to do that, but I remember sitting there thinking like, this is the most. One of the most beautiful things you're ever going to see in your life, and you need to take as many pictures of it as you can so you remember it always.
Interpretation of the Pieta
So what was your. What was your interpretation of it again? It's like, you know, it's something you see pictures of, but you can't. You know, it's like, am I really. Is this, you know, you can't, like, believe that you're actually there seeing it. You know, it was hard for me to get, like, a good picture because the glass, you know, gives a little reflection and, you know, stuff when you're trying to take a good photograph of it. Yeah, that. That vandalism of the. Of the Pieta, I think, was in the 1970s. Right. And we saw that again recently, this year, where people, they didn't damage it, but you saw that with these environmental activists, tried to attack the Mona Lisa.
The Importance of Preserving Art
It's like the. The attacks on the beautiful are always, like, shocking. Who would want to damage something from these masters? You know, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, irreplaceable, you know, people part of people going crazy. Some of you know, if you look at some of the modern art and that. That goes for $42 million or $69 million or whatever it is, and you say, my God, how can anybody pay that if you say this is worth 40, $50 million. Then what is a piece by Michelangelo worth? It is priceless. Never, never be sold because nobody would ever have enough money to. There's not enough money in the world because they will never have again.
Discussion on Objective Beauty
Let me ask you about objective beauty. First of all, do you. Do you have a definition of it? Do you have, do you believe in. Obviously you believe in it because you've seen it, but just give me a. Give me your interpretation of what objective beauty is and what objective beauty is not, and I would particularly like to ask you about. Beauty is being in the eye of the beholder. I think that means something entirely than most people think. So why don't you give us, like, your interpretation of that? Yeah, well, beauty, truth, goodness, and beauty, all of these things are objective things.
Exploration of Beauty Beyond Physical
And it's sort of like, you know, beautiful. Beauty can be things like what we've been talking about, right? An incredible sculpture, a beautiful painting, incredible architecture. Even the things you post, like. Like lamp posts can be. But beauty is also things like spiritual things. Forgiveness, right? A baby smile, you know, beautiful valley, you know, with the green, lush grass, beauties. Lots of things. But I think it takes. It's something that takes us out of ourselves. We live in a society where we're all very much, you know, society sort of teaches us to be these, like, individuals.
Technology and Human Connection
It's whatever you want. You can have everything you want. And it sort of teaches us in some ways to be selfish and to be less. You see it when you go. When you go to dinner, right? You see families at the table, and they're all on their phones instead of talking to each other. We're all kind of in our. In our own mind a lot, even when we're together. And I think a beauty is something that, like, it takes your breath away for you. It takes you. It interrupts even if you are focused, you know, self absorbed. You know, even for the self absorbed, beauty is something that can, like, it's like jumping in a cold swimming pool or the ocean, you know, it's cold.
Beyond Self: The Message of Beauty
It, like, takes your breath away. It's like beauty, like, shakes you a little bit and says, hey, look beyond yourself. There's something greater than yourself. And we're talking about these great churches. Of course there's spiritual truths. These were built by people with faith. Why don't we build these things anymore? It's because we don't believe what they believed anymore. What's the last incredible, beautiful building built in the United States? I couldn't tell you, maybe there's not one in 100 years. I don't know, maybe there is. But we've lost the ability to, I think, create beauty.
Reflection on Modern Art and its Value
And this beauty's in the eye beholder. And like you said, this modern art, which you know, may cost millions of dollars and it's just, you know, it's not beautiful. We've lost our connection to the truth, you know, and this is parallel to like secularism has arisen. We've lost a lot of things that are good. And I think our world thinks of progress is always like, we know better than previous generations, not always. Progress is good in terms of technology.
Impact of Technology on Beauty
But even with technology we lose things. Our phones and stuff caused us to miss out on the beauty of human interaction and connection rather than talking to people. Sometimes people break up with people by text instead of calling them.
The Essence of Beauty
So I just think of beauty is something that shakes even the self absorbed for at least 5 seconds and says, hey, theres something greater than you, right? I think everything doesnt have to be beautiful. I get a lot of criticism from, for saying that the number one criticism of me is, especially in painting, is that, you know, it's not photorealistic, you know, that guy could have did that, but he didn't. I don't know that he could. I just. Everything doesn't have to be beautiful. But you can't say something is beautiful if it's truly not. And to me, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is true. If you are looking at two beautiful objects, is the number one thing I get is you're comparing two things. One is beautiful to me, but it's not you. And I keep saying, no, that's not beautiful, that's art, if you want to call it art, but it's not, you know, it's really not even art.
Reflection on Architecture and Culture
So let me ask you this. The, I don't have the slide because jail is. I've lost jail. But I was going to get her to put it up. You, you made a note to me and it said, our culture expresses itself through great architecture. The christian culture in Europe created the most beautiful buildings. Why don't you expand on that? Yeah, it sort of touches on what I said before is what they believed, you know, go back 500 years or a thousand years, you know, the whole continent was mostly christian, right? It dominated. There wasn't necessarily a separation of church and state. And when they would build these great cathedrals, this wasn't a five year project or a ten year project. It was generations, it was hundreds of years sometimes from when they started a cathedral to when they finished it. And just think of the resources. The entire community was dedicated, the entire community was unified. And then think of the architecture in a place like Pyongyang, North Korea. We've seen these photos of this sort of bleak, just totally devoid of any beauty.
The Issue of Beauty and Atheism
This atheistic country, can they create beautiful things? I haven't seen any evidence of it. So obviously there are things that are beautiful that aren't inspired by christians of course. But when you look at the christian culture there's a book about how the church built western civilization. So the church contributed so much good to our society that people don't really know. Hospitals, hospices, the first universities. The idea of human rights comes from the church. If you go back to ancient Rome and some of these go back a couple thousand years, they don't really have a notion of human rights. They'll just come in town and kill you if they're invading. So there's an article too by a guy, his name is David Perel, he's a writer and he talks about how much Christianity benefits modern society and how many people are totally unaware that's where the values come from and even the fact about the Bible, right?
Demanding Knowledge of the Bible
This is the most famous book, bestselling book in world history. In our universities today, they don't, you know, people haven't read it. If you're an educated person you should read it. That doesn't mean you have to become Christian. But this is a book that has influenced the entire world, changed world history. You should be at least knowledgeable. Just like some christians read the quran for an understanding of it. But people who think of themselves as highly educated, you know, they think they're too cool, they're too smart, they don't, you know, so again, what our modern society thinks of as good is it's all wacky because we've lost this connection to the true good and the beautiful. Right?
Discussion on Cathedrals
When the great cathedrals being built, you know, started around twelve hundreds, maybe a little before, but most of them were Catholic. You know, the great gothic cathedrals were catholic and you know they began in France and the people in France kind of, it spread from there but you know, Gothic began in France. Do you see part of it being catholic versus protestant or do you know, there's some stuff in England built by the Protestants but most of the great cathedrals are that I'll see and I look at mostly are Catholic at least in origin. Do you have an opinion on that? Yeah, well, like you said, some of these great cathedrals we still have with us today started around, what, the 12th century or so? So the Protestant Reformation is not into the 15 hundreds. So everybody was Christian, everybody was Catholic in Europe.
Opinions on the Protestant Reformation
And so the Catholic Church would look at that as these are our children that went away. Sort of look at it like, yeah, it all comes up out of that same foundation. England does have some very beautiful cathedrals as well. But, yeah, the incredible cathedrals, when you think about in history, you know, or are the catholic ones. But again, that doesn't mean that there aren't some that aren't. Do you think, do you think that the break with Protestantism and Catholicism heard it? Do you think that's when the, do you think that's when the, you know, when the problem began, or do you think it's more toward the next point we want to talk about, which is secularism? No, I think that's when it kind of began to remember part of this in our love of the beauty of St.
Causes of the Protestant Reformation
Peter's and the whole thing about the Protestant Reformation. One of the big reasons was there were some catholic leaders doing terrible things wrong, immoral things. So some of Martin Luther complaints were valid. They were selling indulgences to finance St. Peter's basilica. That was gravely, morally wrong from a catholic perspective. There shouldn't have been this split. But yeah. So when we get today where, when the most recent Supreme Court justice, I think her name is Justice Jackson in the United States, there's this controversy about what's a man, what's a woman? Right. She wouldn't answer the question. And it's, I think that's all related because in the past there was an authority, the church in western civilization that had authority to speak on matters of importance, of, certainly of matters of morality.
Shift in Societal Authority
And in the age we live in today, it's, I can tell you that I'm a ballerina because that's how I identify with that. Now, I won't move like one, but people just sort of think up and make up. So I think that's continuing. Like throw a stone in the pond in that ripple. I don't think of the split between Protestants as Catholics. That's some past 500 year event. I think many of the problems in our society today are continuing because of the split in Christendom. It does make the church weaker, less moral authority. And of course, every time somebody in the church does something immoral and the church is made up of sinners, it weakens the morality of the church, but doesn't change what is true good and beautiful. You know, the gothic cathedral, if you look at the front of them, there's all these statues carved into the sodom.
Cultural Influence of the Church
What originated that was they were trying to be inclusive and they were trying to bring people into the church, and everybody couldn't read back then. So, you know, I think the catholic church gets a lot of bad press, and I think they've tried over the years many different things. I just. I wonder. I just wonder about that split, if that didn't cause some of the problems that's still going on today. Now in Eastern Europe, it seems to be like Poland and Hungary and places like that. There seems to be a more conservative view of Catholicism. Would you like to say anything about that? Yeah. Eastern Europe, of course, is part of western civilization.
Current Trends in Eastern Europe
Poland is a very catholic country with a high attendance rate in terms of going to church and stuff like that. But that doesn't mean it always will be. Ireland used to be that way, too, but Ireland has gone the way of the rest of many of the western nations. But Hungary now is a place where sort of has that same identity, but some just incredibly beautiful places. In Poland and some of these eastern european countries, Catholics pray the rosary and there's this move to spread these public displays of faith that sort of originated in some of these eastern european countries that are growing now. And that's happening in Australia and Ireland and the United States. And so that's really interesting. But of course, Catholics love Poland because that's where Pope John Paul II, along with Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, are credited with the defeat of the Soviet Union.
The Shift of Cultural Dynamics
Yeah, I think that a lot of them. It's almost like the polls have switched. You know, the Soviet Union and the countries that were under their influence were supposed to be this, the bad guys, I guess the best way to say it. And the United States was supposed to be the good guys. And since the Soviet Union has failed, it's almost like the polls have switched. You know, it's like, no, it is more secular here. It think you look at the Olympics and say that would have never been went on in an eastern european country. Why do you think secularism is risen? One of your points you made was that secularism rose and objective beauty is fail.
Understanding the Rise of Secularism
So why do you think that is? And just go on with that and then we'll go on to the next point. Yeah, well, there's obviously people who, you know, for lack of a better word, they don't believe in God. They hate God. Secularism seeks to. Certainly in the United States, there's this idea of separation of church and state. Well, that concept was meant to protect the church from the government, not the other way around. Right. And so it's sort of this idea sort of proposed as some sort of like, neutral, but secular values are very, something is going to fill a vacuum. And the people who push extreme secularism are very anti christian.
The Intolerance of Secularism
They act like the people that they would criticize. They act very intolerant. They would say, oh, religious people are very intolerant, but they act like Pharisees. They want to burn people at the stake, practically. So I always find that sort of amusing and interesting, but I don't know why this. Yeah. We've lost so much with, like you said, the Catholic Church gets a lot of press. There was a famous bishop once who said, if, you know, there wouldn't be a hundred people in the United States that would hate the Catholic Church if they knew the truth and not just what people say about it. Right. Not that there aren't problems and haven't been problems, et cetera.
The Historical Context of Secularism
But I, yeah, I don't know why secularism is, but it's been, you know, even people in the 18 hundreds, the late 18 hundreds were writing about this, you know, warning you could read something about the rise of secularism in our schools and think it was written today and it was written in the late 18 hundreds. So it's been going on a long time. But that was one of the things of sort of the enlightenment, right? There was this, while there might have been some beneficial ideas, this sort of putting off with the old guard and set your own destiny, all this sort of thing. But when we divorce ourselves from the true good and beautiful, the society suffers.
The Modern Crisis of Beauty and Truth
And you can't just pick up a newspaper. I don't know, are they still printing newspapers? Log onto the web and look at a newspaper and, you know, things, crazy things are happening, very dangerous and scary things. And the abyss we're going into is a thousand times worse than where we are now if we don't embrace truth, goodness and beauty. And, you know, western civilization, it's found, you know, I did a space. There's a guy, he's an incredible guy. He's a philosopher and a professor, but he teaches. But we did a space on the convergence of three things.
The Coming Together of Historical Influences
The philosophy of the Greeks, roman order, the infrastructure that Rome brought with its empire, and how Jesus came at the perfect time in history. And then these three things sort of come together over several centuries, and the Church fuels this explosion of western civilization. And there's actually a book about that's really, really fantastic. I think what we're doing in space this Friday with him, his name is imperator, and we're going to sort of focus on the Dark Ages. You know, the church especially gets criticized about the dark ages. I think we're in the Dark Ages now. And some of that talk about the Dark Ages in the past is just anti religious.
Preservation of Knowledge in the Dark Ages
There was a lack of sort of historical records and stuff. But in the monasteries of Europe, these were learning centers that went on. They were protecting great literature from history, protecting the Bible that just existed in a few copies in different monasteries and things like that. And they were agricultural innovations, we think of innovations like rockets to Mars and iPhones, but they were amazing. While they seem very rudimentary to us now, some of these innovations that kept Europe fed. Yeah. Secularism is an enemy of the church and will only make us suffer the stronger it gets.
The Modern Challenges of Materialism
Okay, the next point we want to talk about, and this is where I get into, you know, my spiel about corporations, but the modern world is built around every man for himself. And materialism being, I think, the rise of secularism. But that's just my take on it. So I don't want to influence you, but in today's architecture reflects the shallow nature of modern man. Now, what I think is that, you know, if everybody's got a 401K now or an IRA and the stock price dictates what they do, I think that they cut corners and cut corners, told there's no way they can have anything that's beautiful, like, you know, a St. Peter's or Santa Maria Sofa, Minerva, or something like that.
Corporate Interests Vs. Beauty
What do you think about that? Absolutely. It's all about the bottom line. And these corporations, they have shareholders to answer to. They have a fiduciary duty to return profits. And again, I don't think they can even, I don't think they want to build something beautiful. First of all, you have to desire it. And so for people of faith, there's a kindling of that fire to build something to the glory of God, for example. Not that we're just talking about churches. You can have a beautiful city hall or a beautiful opera hall. There are many of those in Europe. Paris has beautiful architecture.
The Declining Pursuit of Beauty
But again, a lot of that was built during that time where the church, still, France was one of the great catholic countries. It's fallen pretty far down since then. But yeah, we're in a materialistic world. Every man for himself make as much money as possible. But I don't think they want to. So we have to one, have the, first of all, we have to be able to recognize beauty. So it'd be great maybe if we could take all these board members of all these corporations and, like, force them to go into St. Peters or something.
Raising Awareness of Beauty in Society
Right? We got to show them what beauty is, get them to recognize it, and they have to want to do it first. I don't think, first of all, they want to because I don't think they necessarily know what it is. I don't either. And that one of the reasons I did my account is because I didn't know. You know, I've been through 1212 years of education in high school and for, in college, and I, you know, April 15, 2019, other named Paris burned down. And I'm. I google it and see what it looked like before the fire. And I just, the next day, and I was, like, absolutely floored that anything like that was built and I didn't know about it and be that it could be that beautiful.
The Lost Connection to Beauty
So I just think that corporations and it's like slot materialism and money is replacing goodness and truth. It's like the point you made about the woman that couldn't going to be Supreme Court justice. I couldn't tell you what a definition of a woman is. It's. Some of the cases that go before the Supreme Court are incredibly complex. If you can't start with what's the difference between a woman and a man, then, you know, I don't know that you need to be deciding cases for the. For the country. That's just my take.
Convergence of Perspectives
Totally agree. Beautiful art and architecture inspires humanity. The human soul elevates our spirits and takes us outside of ourselves. Now, that was one of your points that you made when were talking about what to do on this, and that gets pretty close to Plato. So I think it's. I think it's a universal truth. I think you're going to find that in the church teaching. I think you're going to find that in the reasons that they were doing this for people to build all these beautiful places. But it all goes all the way back to Plato.
The Importance of Community Dedication
So why do you think that we're not doing it now? Is it just more about the previous point? Yeah, I don't think we have the dedication again, the whole community, so everybody in the town, let's just. Okay. We're a town. We're going to build a cathedral here. Everybody was for it. You didn't have people that weren't christian. Everybody was for it. And so the whole town dedicated themselves for, again, generations. You know, there was a. I think it was the. Was it a showtime series? There was some series.
Cultural Reflection in Media
I think it was the one on the Medici family. It was really interesting. But one of the episodes starts where this little boy is playing in the street. I don't know, he throws a ball or something, and it rolls right up to the cornerstone where they're laying this foundation of the cathedral. And at the very end of it, he's an old Mandev attending the dedication ceremony that it took all this time to build. Yeah. The only, you know, great cathedral that's been built right now in the west that I know of is sagrada familia, and that's not my cup of tea, but, you know, that's a gaudy thing.
Understanding Modern Architectural Trends
And I got tired of getting yelled at by the gaudy fans, but. Well, it is. It is architecturally interesting. Yeah. I'm, you know, mixes several styles, I think gothic revival and Art nouveau. It is at least interesting. Yeah, it's not.
Shared Taste in Architecture
I'm like you, I think we had this sort of the same taste. I like the gothic cathedral, you know, sort of these beautiful baroque churches and that sort of thing. But again, that is. When did they start building that? They started that, and I think the 18 hundreds. So that is at least an example of something that has taken more than a century or a century and a half. I can't think of any other place that's sort of like that. The United States has some very beautiful cathedrals. I don't know if you've ever been to the. It's the national shrine, of the immaculate conception. It's in Washington. I think it's the biggest church building in North America. very beautiful. Very, very, you know, it's not St. Peter's, but it's. It's. It's pretty spectacular.
Travel Plans and Architecture
I have not, I'm going to. I'm going to go west to Asheville, get on the blue ridge partway, and I'm just going to head north. So I may be able to do it. I'm going to do that trip in about a month. I would say maybe a little less. I got it. But I would love to go to Washington, DC for a lot of things. So there's a lot of beautiful architecture like there. Up there, like you say, there are more beautiful buildings in the United States than I usually feature because I like to do my own pictures, and I just haven't been able to get up just to see them. But I would like to go up there and start searching them out. So if anybody has pictures one, they can start sending them to me, and I'll start putting them on my list of things to visit.
Cathedral in Home Town
But I do want to plug. I have to plug the cathedral in my hometown. I'm a convert. This is actually where I converted, but it's the cathedral basilica in Savannah, Georgia. It's a neo gothic. It's got the twin spires. You go inside, it's like a hundred foot ceiling with the beautiful murals and frescoes. So I don't know if architect, if you've ever been there or seen that, but that's definitely one. I think it's one of the three or four, five most beautiful churches in the United States.
Exploring Savannah
I have not. I've heard of it in Savannah's, you know, architecturally is pretty nice city. There's a lot of things down there to see, just to walk around on the old streets and see. See what's going on down there. I'd like to go down there and see that one. Maybe. I'm gonna be going back to Georgia next week and where I'll be staying up in North Georgia, but I've had that trip planned a couple times, and it's a fell out every time. But I might be. Might be back in touch with you to schedule something like that. When's the best time to go and all that kind of thing.
Love for European Architecture
But European, the European architecture, to me, there's something about it being old, too. You know, hundreds and hundreds of years old. It's kind of special to me, so. But I do need to get. Get out more and see more of the American cathedrals because it's so hard to get over to Europe. Yeah, St. Louis has a. Has a pretty impressive one as well. I would say it's more grand than it is beautiful, but I would say that there are. It's just more, again, it's more the scale. It's been there for more than 100 years.
Discussion on Truth and Beauty
Jalen, we got a couple more points to go over here, and if people want to start asking questions or making comments, we can go ahead and start taking them here in a few minutes. But the last point that I wanted to go over with you before we go up to the board and look at some of the pictures is three things we should all do. Defend the truth, live virtuously and promote beauty. So that gets into the objective versus objective argument, which, you know, I think me and you pretty much, there's no sense in me and you discussing where we agree on that. But what do you mean by that?
Common Good of Society
For the people out in the audience, defend the truth, live virtuously and promote beauty. Well, it's for the common good of society, right? If we're not living in reality, you know, for pretending that, you know, I could say I'm the king of England, but that doesn't make it true. Right. First you have to live in reality. We can't help other people if we're not honest with ourselves and truth. So I just think it's about the common good. You know, we're in a political season, and one of the words and terms a lot of politicians use is our values. Our values. We have good. You know, our values are this, and they wrap it up like it's in a blanket.
Values vs. Virtues
Like, values are good, but values is a neutral term, and values are not always good, and sometimes they're bad. Virtues are always good. So a value could be something that's terrible. I think Thomas Aquinas has some sort of quote that how beauty is so important that even when someone wants to do evil, they're not going to come in an ugly form. They're going to even, I think that's from scripture, like, the devil disguises himself as angel of light. So when you hear that term values sort of stop and think, that doesn't mean it's good. It just means it's what that person is trying to propagate.
Virtues to Improve Society
So the virtues are faith, hope, and love, and they are prudence, temperance, justice, and courage. These are the things that make our lives better, make society better. If we're all, prudent, you know, why the world would be a better place? If we're all temperate and didn't get angry all the time. If we, if more people had courage, right? If the only thing that takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. A lot of people don't stand up for the truth because they're afraid of their losing their 401k or, you know, getting, cancel culture.
Individual Influence on Society
These things make for the common good of society, and they should be. We all have our little part to play. It's not some politician that's going to fix it all. We all have a sphere of influence. We all influence 100, 200 people over the course of our lives pretty profoundly. Or we can, we should be working towards that. Okay, let me see. Jail, you want to come in and ask a couple questions or make a couple comments? JL is my host, catholic frequency. So co-host, we've had massive technical difficulties getting her on for the last couple of weeks.
Exploring Churches in Rome
Let me get Jeannie in here. Jeannie, you have a question? Trying to get her on. While you're trying to get her microphone on, let me ask you a question. Tell me about. I know you love this church you touched on earlier, the basilica of Santa Maria sopra Minerva. What about that? Because that's a church. You post this a lot, that if you see a church with an open door in Rome, you go into it because you never know what's inside.
Admiring Simple Beauty
I think that's a church that has a very plain Jane. There's nothing on the outside that would say, come in. Right. You go in there. Why do you love that so much? I don't. I think it's because it's original. You know, it's only rich original, always being gothic church in Rome. And in the front of it, like you say, is I was looking for the. I came up on it. I looked at my phone and said, okay, that's it. So I walked around up that little hill to the back and went around there to see if that was the front.
Unexpected Beauty and Experiences
And I was looking at the back. I mean, you could put a sign on that almost. It said carpet burn barn. And you would think like, okay, this is the carpet mark. There's nothing that's going to tell you that. And then out in the courtyard, you know, there's the famous Bernini elephant sculpture. And, you know, I'd forgot about that, but I sat out there for about ten minutes and I was about to go on because they were at lunch, and then they opened the doors. I went on in, and I think I took more pictures in that place than I did any of them.
Capturing Beauty in Photography
I think up on the jumbotron there. I can't really say which ones, but there are some pictures of Santa Maria, sopa, Minerva. There is a Michelangelo statue there, Christ the Redeemer. And then you see the. See the blue gothic arches up in the ceiling? I don't know why that one. You know, I'm a gothic guy. That's what got me going. But I took an enormous amount of pictures there. I don't. I don't post them enough because I posted so many of them when I got back.
Comparative Impressions
But it, to me, that one and St. Agnese and agony, they, those two just completely blew me away up in the jumbotron. For the pictures up there, we have them numbered one through eight. Those four places, which is St. Peter's, St. Andrea Delaval and Santa Rio sofa, Minerva. And this St. Peter's, I guess, is the border that I decided to put pictures up on. They will blow you away. What do you like about Santa Maria?
Gothic Church Background
So from Minerva? Well, I like the Gothic, you know, like I said, I'm from Savannah, so the only catholic church I ever knew, because I'm only catholic about ten years or so, was this sort of gothic church. So, you know, when I think of a Catholic church, that's what I think of first. But it's just so, it's so interesting. We got the Michelangelo statue, which is risen Christ, the what's in the Jeb Tron.
Historical Context of Art
Now, when that was first made, carved out, there was actually no loincloth because Michelangelo was trying to focus on the humanity of Christ. In Catholic teaching, Jesus is both fully God and fully man. But there was a little controversy after that. And so another artist or sculptor added that within a few decades of. But it's funny because I host a rosary, and one of the people that come to it is a friar, and he is stationed, because a religious order maintains that church.
Personal Connection to the Church
He's stationed at that church, and he's actually sent me pictures at night after he's locked the doors from the inside. And he's like, if you're ever in Rome, come have lunch here. So I'm like, well, you better believe I would definitely do that. So it's an amazing place. It is. You know, I went to Piazza Navona to see the Bernini's fountain, you know, the fiume fountain of the four rivers.
Recommendations for Visitors
And behind it is the church, you know, st. Agnesian agony. And you can get to that dome in that church really easy. And the only other place you can get close under the dome like that really is. Well, I guess St. Andrea Delaval, too. But that one, I was expecting zero when I walked in. And I walked in and that one almost floored me. I stayed in that church for probably 30, 45 minutes, just sitting there looking at everything.
Experiences and Impressions
Did you go to that first Agnes? Absolutely. yeah, that's. That's one that sort of took my breath away. It was one of the first ones I went to having. It was on my first trip. I did not get to go this last time. And I didn't know things could be that beautiful, like buildings. I really didn't. You know, St. Peter's gives you that impression, but St. Agnes, absolutely incredible.
Music and Concerts
They have a lot of, like, I think, concerts there as well, like, you know, symphony stuff. It's just such an incredible place. But on that piazza Navona on the other side, I think sort of diagonally, there's another church that's, I don't know if you went to it. I think it's our lady of the Sacred Heart. Very beautiful, very small, not as beautiful, but has some beautiful artworks and beautiful paintings and stuff of St. Joseph.
Exploring the Richness of Rome
And that's, it's, you never know. There's 900 churches in Rome, so wherever you are, there's a church, you know, a few blocks away at the most. But I would always say, if you're going to the big ones, if you're going to St. Peter's, start in the morning. It opens at 07:00 be in line at quarter till. Your experience will be so much better because as the day goes on, the line goes all the way around.
Planning Visits to Popular Sites
You might stand in line for 90 minutes before you even get inside. And so you want to avoid that. I'd go to, like, the big ones early in the morning, and then as the afternoon goes on, you can go to some of the more smaller places. So everything's smaller compared to St. Peters Bay. That's my travel. Definitely agree.
Experience at the Borghese Gallery
Anything in the Vatican and the one we're talking about, churches mostly. But if you go to Borghese gallery, you need to buy your tickets before you get on the plane in months in advance because they're sold out, because that place is packed all the time. And I only got in for an hour. You know, I got, I don't know how many pictures I took in there, but I could have stayed in that one.
Stunning Artworks and Sculptures
Your pictures of that. And I didn't. I've never been there is, are stunning of that. I guess it's the Bernini sculpture. I forget what it's called off the top of my head, but from all the angles, absolutely phenomenal. The reason you, the reason you have to shoot so many different funny angles is because you don't want people in your picture.
Observations of Visitors
And it's just like, especially Proserpina. It's, it's like there's a, like a moving circle around that sculpture. It's weird. It's like people walk around and look at it from this point, and then they'll look at it from that point. And some of the people, you know, some of the pictures I got with people in them, if you look at the expression on their faces, you know, you got a guy that's you know, 65, 70 years old, that's probably going to Rome for his first time, seeing this sculpture for his first time.
Art as a Transformative Experience
And they're just absolutely mesmerized. That, to me, is what a beautiful piece of art will do to you. You talk. You talk a lot about the Bernini pill. Tell me about that. The Bernini pill is, you know, there's the red pill, the white pill, the black pill, I guess, the tutti foodie pill, you know, the red pill means that you're woke and you've awakened from your slumber, and the black pill means that you're, you know, everything is bad, and white pill means that you're optimistic, you know?
The Bernini Effect on Life
So I just came up with, I don't need any of those pills. All I need is the Bernini pill. Bernini, to me, Washington was the greatest because he. There's no telling what he could have come up with if he just stuck to sculpture. It's kind of like Michelangelo. There's no telling what he could come up with if he's just stuck the sculpture. But he did paintings and, you know, he was architect, too, and all the rest of it.
The High Esteem for Bernini
But Bernini, to me, just.
The Beauty of Bernini
And when I want to go look at something beautiful, that's what it is. And the other thing about Bernini is he was able to capture motion in stone. And that, you know, there's only a couple people that can really do that. Jim Bologna is one. But to me, when I say seeing that and when people, I send people one of my photos, they always include a copy of, like, a little thingy picture, and it's. It's hit the Pluto's hand impressing into Proserpina's thigh. And that one right there just blew me away. Do you, did you get to go to Borgese?
Challenges in Rome
No, I did not, because I didn't take your advice about getting my tickets before you get on the plane. You know, Rome is going to be very challenging in 2025 because it's a jubilee year. So for people who aren't Catholic, that's once every 25 years. And so it's going to be harder to find hotels. Usually that starts around the beginning of December because that's the liturgical gear and, you know, may get better after next summer, but it's going to be, especially the spring. It's going to be really hard to get to Rome and see stuff, right? But the deal with, I say Rome, do it early or do it late.
Visiting Major Attractions
It's like if you're going into a big attraction. Attraction like St. Peter's. Definitely 07:00 be in line. Go down. Your tickets to the Vatican museum bought. If you're going with a tour guide, go the first. You can. I got some pictures of the hall of maps and where people are, where I've got the, you know, the ceiling and then I've got a little bit of the ground where people are walking down and there's, I can't even tell you, I mean, people sent it, but it was packed. And the tour guide told me, if you'd have been here early this morning, we could sit here and play soccer in the hall.
Planning a Visit to the Vatican Museums
So if you're going to the Vatican museums, definitely, definitely get your ticket in advance and buy it for the morning so you can go through and enjoy it more. I made a mistake. Guess when I went. 05:00 on a Friday. Don't ever do that. Yeah, I could imagine. I could imagine. But it, and the thing about the Vatican museum is you can't see it all. It's, it would be wonderful to be able to spend two days in Vatican Museum. To me, I would, I want to say this, though. I never liked the Sistine Jeffel. I've seen pictures of it and I never liked it. I thought it was overblown and it was.
Experiencing the Sistine Chapel
Michael Angelo was. But there is a huge difference between looking at the pictures and being inside of it. It is one of the most moving places I've ever been. There's two places that I've been in all my travels that it's absolutely, you know, you're standing next to hallow ground. One is the Sistine Chapel, and the other one, which was a big surprise to me, was the George Washington's tomb. To stand there by Washington, there's a sign that you get about 100ft away from it. It says you're approaching Washington's tomb. Silence and respect. And it is a very solemn place. When you think about all the history that this one guy did, all the sacrifices he made, and all those two places to me were just absolute hallowed ground.
The Experience of Crowds
Yeah, the Sistine Chapel was incredible. I didn't stay in there long because by the time we got there, it's sort of the last thing. If you take one of these tours in the Vatican museum, there must have been 500 people in there and it must have been 200 degrees. And so I didn't stay long. But again, start early, go early in the morning and you'll have a better experience at these massive major attractions. I didn't. I didn't take pictures in Sistine Chapel because you're not supposed to. I also didn't speak, but walking around, they were people just, you know, you're not supposed to take pictures.
Respecting the Sacred Space
There's four signs on the way through it. The tour guide said, do not take pictures in here. And people just walk around snapping pictures and talking. It was almost like you in a high school football game. It's like people were. You couldn't hear yourself thinking there. So I stayed a few minutes, looked at it, and I walked. Kind of walked out early. And I was kind of. Kind off put by it. It kind of ruined the experience for me, I think it was. It's such a hallowed place that you should go in, keep your mouth shut, don't take pictures.
Introspection on Sacred Spaces
Don't pretend to take pictures. Some people walking around with their phone, snapping them, you know, had it on reverse and. And we're snapping pictures of it, but some people were just absolutely pointing the camera and taking pictures. And I didn't. I didn't do it. And the detour guy said that told me this after we got out, said, this is the house of God and you shouldn't take pictures in there. And people shouldn't be talking. They should treat it with respect. So that. That. It was a really a point, a high point for me to walk into that.
The Overwhelming Beauty of the Chapel
It was such a surprise because I was not expecting it to be that overwhelming. But I still. I look at pictures, they don't do it justice. That one place, I can tell you do, it does not do you justice. St. Peters. Awful. There's an awful lot of it like that. You can, you can. I can show you the pictures, but to be standing inside of it is incredible. I mean, it's like, I can't even explain it.
Favorite Churches in Italy
When. When I was on your space, you kept asking me about this one or that one. I kept giving you the same adjective because you just run out of adjectives with this stuff. So I don't know. Yeah, I agree with you about the Sistine Chapel. Like I said, there was like 500 people in. There was 200 degrees, and it was so loud from the people talking, it sounded like you were like at a sports bar. It's why it's like I have to come back, like, you know, 08:00 in the morning or something. So it's just sort of hard to sort of absorb it.
Questions and Discussions
Jail. Do you have any. Anything that you want to burn? And. Will Bricklethe. Eugenie asked a question, and I want to say hi to. Hi to you. How you doing out there, girl? And so, Gerald, do you have anything? I don't know if we can hear your voice or not, but if you want to. Come on, say something. Do it now. Archie. Hi. Hi, Jeannie. Hi. Hi, everybody. Hello, Catholic. I have a question for you. Two questions.
Favorite Churches Besides Rome
If, Archie, you permit. First question is, do you have your favorite church besides Rome? I mean, not in Rome, but in some other cities of Italy. And if you have this favorite church, is it lethal, is it unknown? Is it favorite? And if you have it, where is it situated, the location, and what is the value of this church for you? The first question, and the second question is, do you have a happy place in Italy besides Rome? Yeah.
Trip Highlights
Well, thank you. That's a very good question. So my first trip to Rome was last year. I just went to Rome, but this year I wanted to see some other places. So I went to Rome, I went to Florence, and I went to Assisi. So I would say my favorites would have to be in Florence. And really two come to mind. There's a church called Santa Maria Novella. I think that's the official name of it, which I posted picture of pictures of before.
Experiences in Florence
That was just sort of unlike any other church I'd been into before. I'll post some pictures of that one later today. And then also, of course, when you talk about Florence, there's the great cathedral, the great domo, that's so famous, but that actually wouldn't be it. The other one is Santa Croce, which is holy Cross. That church is absolutely stunning and spectacular for the Duomo, for the big one, the cathedral of Rome, financed by the Medici family.
Expectations vs. Reality
The outside is spectacular with all the details and stuff. And when you go inside, the inside of the dome that's over the altar is incredible. But I found, it's funny because you go in and I sort of thought the inside would be grander than it was. So I guess there was a little bit of a letdown of sort of the buildup of the outside was so incredible. Sort of like the inverse of Rome, right? You.
Hidden Gems and Local Churches
Some carpet world kind of looking building, and you go in and you're blown away. I thought just because of the outside, the cathedral in Rome, I mean, in Florence, would be like out of this world. It's spectacularly beautiful. I don't want to say it's not, but it just. My expectations were different than my experience. So two in Florence, Santa Croce and Santa Maria Novella. I wanted to go.
Trip Plans and Cancellations
I was supposed to go to Florence last year one of my trips, but that trip got canceled. Like, my trip this year to England got canceled, but that's. Florence is one that I don't know if I want to stay there a week, but I definitely want to go. Did you go see the big David inside the museum? I didn't. I had this priest friend of mine that kept telling me, you got to go here, you got to go there, you got to go here, you got to go there.
Lessons from Short Visits
And it was just so of a, you know, I was only there for two days, and, you know, I had going 8 hours a day or whatever on my feet, and, you know, at some point I was like, I'm not going down there and standing in line for 2 hours. I can't do it because I was going to Assisi next. And I have to say, a very close, you know, honorable mention maybe might be my favorite. It's hard to say.
Reflections on Assisi
I forgot about it when I first answered, was the BasIlica of San Francisco. Of Assisi. In assisi. If you go to that, there's actually two churches. There's a lower basilica and an upper basilica. The upper basilica, I mean, look it up. There are no words to describe how beautiful that is. Right. I want to get out into Italy next trip, too.
Future Travel Plans
It'd be great if, you know, we could all, you know, get a bunch of us like minded guys together and go over there and go through. Just do a tour of Italy. You know, I hear lots of good things about Naples. I hear lots of not so great things about Naples. But I've seen Rome, and there's. I've seen Rome, but you can't see Rome. That's like you say, there's nine other churches.
Exploration and Hidden Treasures
If you pass an open door, go in, you just won't believe. It is absolutely incredible to be in Rome. Like, St. Peter's would just flabbergast you. But I would like to get out and go through, you know, some of the small towns, see some of the small churches, and see some of the hidden gems out there. I mean, there's so many places you could go.
Ideas for Future Adventures
You go to Milan, like the great cathedral there. You could go to Venice. St. Mark's Basilica there. I mean, it's just, I've actually been thinking, because I work remotely about maybe next year or the next year, like, just renting a place in Rome for a month, and because I could work remotely, I could take a week or two off in the middle of that month, right? So sometime I'd be totally off, but I could also work from there.
Flexible Travel Schedules
And then, you know, the weekend, you maybe take a train down to Naples or, you know, you can. You could see some other things, too, but I'm really sort of toying with that idea. Me, too. I would love. I would love. But that's what were going to do. I had a group, and it just kind of fell apart at the last minute.
Planning Local Travel
But I had a group that were going to go kind of central out into England. We were going to go this direction, that stay this direction the next day, but it kind of fell apart. But it was disappointing. But I would like to go there, get a house, and, you know, that way you could do some of your own cooking and you could plan it out better than, you know, staying in the motel all the time.
Closing Thoughts
So I guess we have no more questions. And I can't get a hold of jail, so. But I do. I did want to give you because you said you don't get to go to Europe as much as you want to. One more church in the United States to put on your list that I just think you would love. It's the Sacred Heart basilica at University of Notre Dame.
Cherished Churches
It's got the gothic, it's got the blue ceilings. I think you would just really love that one. Yeah, I believe. I believe so, too. My friend Leah figs is. That's one of her favorite churches. She posts. It's, posted it several times. And I do. I know that. Know that church is as hard for me to get up to Indiana, but I am.
Personal Adventures in Photography
I'm gonna fall is one of my favorite things to take pictures of, especially in the morning when it's a misty day. And I'm gonna go to go up to Blue Ridge Parkway and just kind of hopscotch around for, you know, three, four days and see what I can see and hopefully end up in Virginia. But we'll see. But anyway, I do just get we about it.
Conclusion
We went over an hour here, so I do appreciate you. I guess I can't get a hold of jail and know she's said she had connection problems. But I do appreciate you coming on. Do appreciate you having me on your spaces. Catholic frequency is the. What is your at Catholic FQ? Yeah. So definitely a wonderful person to follow for if you're not following him already.
Gratitude and Farewell
And just want to say thank you very much and thank you for everybody coming on and listening to our space. All right, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. All right, see you later. Bye.
