CEO of Telegram Arrested | FREE SPEECH? | HOT TAKES

Space Summary

The Twitter Space CEO of Telegram Arrested | FREE SPEECH? | HOT TAKES hosted by TrashDiscourse. The Twitter space delved into the arrest of the CEO of Telegram, sparking intense debates on free speech, platform regulations, and the responsibilities of tech companies and governments in managing online discourse. Participants explored the boundaries of freedom of speech in the digital era and discussed the implications of the arrest on digital rights, online privacy, and global conversations. The intersection of technology, law, and ethics in regulating online content was a central theme, reflecting on the challenges of balancing freedom of expression with ensuring online safety and accountability.

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Questions

Q: What were the main points of contention regarding the CEO of Telegram’s arrest?
A: Participants debated the boundaries of free speech, legality of online content, and implications for digital rights.

Q: How do platform regulations affect the discussion around freedom of speech?
A: The discussions highlighted the challenges of balancing user expression with the need for online safety and accountability.

Q: What role do social media platforms play in moderating controversial content?
A: Participants discussed the responsibilities of platforms in allowing diverse opinions while addressing harmful or offensive content.

Q: What are the concerns regarding government intervention in online speech?
A: Participants expressed fears about potential censorship, restrictions on free speech, and the global impact of governmental control over online content.

Q: How can tech companies balance user freedom with the need for content moderation?
A: The space explored the complexities of maintaining an open digital environment while addressing harmful content and protecting users.

Q: What are the broader societal implications of restricting free speech online?
A: Discussions touched on the effects of limiting online speech on democracy, human rights, and the flow of information in the digital age.

Q: Why is the CEO’s arrest significant in the context of free speech debates?
A: The arrest raised questions about the power dynamics between tech leaders, governments, and the impact on global conversations and internet freedoms.

Q: How can individuals ensure their digital rights while navigating online platforms?
A: Participants shared insights on protecting privacy, advocating for free speech, and understanding the legal frameworks that govern online expression.

Q: What are the ethical considerations in regulating online speech and content?
A: The space delved into the ethical dilemmas faced by tech companies, governments, and individuals when navigating issues of censorship, misinformation, and online safety.

Q: What are the expected future trends in the regulation of online speech and digital freedoms?
A: Discussions hinted at potential shifts in policies, regulations, and technological solutions to address the evolving landscape of online communication and expression.

Highlights

Time: 00:05:42
Debates on Digital Rights and Free Speech Exploring the complexities of upholding freedom of speech while ensuring online safety and accountability.

Time: 00:15:18
Tech Companies’ Role in Online Moderation Analyzing the challenges faced by platforms in balancing user freedom with content moderation.

Time: 00:25:50
Global Impact of Censorship on Internet Freedoms Discussing how governmental actions can influence online discourse and access to information.

Time: 00:35:37
Future of Digital Rights and Privacy Online Speculating on potential developments in regulating online speech and protecting user privacy.

Time: 00:45:21
Impact of Online Regulations on User Expression Examining how platform rules affect the diversity of opinions and freedom of expression.

Time: 00:55:09
Ethical Considerations in Online Content Governance Delving into the ethical dilemmas faced by digital platforms in managing online content and user interactions.

Time: 01:05:44
Tech Leaders’ Influence on Digital Discourse Reflecting on the responsibilities and power dynamics of tech executives in shaping online conversations.

Time: 01:15:32
Government Control and Online Speech Exploring the implications of state intervention in regulating online speech and content.

Time: 01:25:19
User Empowerment and Digital Literacy Discussing ways for individuals to protect their rights, navigate digital platforms, and advocate for online freedoms.

Time: 01:35:55
Implications of Online Censorship on Global Conversations Analyzing how restrictions on speech can impact cross-border communications and internet dynamics.

Key Takeaways

• Different opinions on the arrest highlighted the complexities of free speech in the digital age.
• Discussions emphasized the impact of platform regulations on user expression and privacy rights.
• The space explored the balance between free speech and accountability for online content.
• Participants delved into the role of social media platforms in moderating controversial content.
• Legal implications and the challenges of maintaining freedom of speech online were debated.
• The importance of digital rights, censorship, and government intervention in online speech was discussed.
• Participants expressed concerns about the potential chilling effects of restricting free speech online.
• The impact of the CEO’s arrest on user trust, platform policies, and global implications was analyzed.
• Participants shared perspectives on the responsibility of tech companies and governments in regulating speech.
• Debates revolved around the intersection of technology, law, human rights, and online discourse.

Behind the Mic

Introductory Statements About GoldenEye

I told you I was going to do it. Bx. I told you I’ve been doing it. I told you I was gonna do it. I’m like, it’s such a banger, man. I talk about. I’ve been doing it, like, so you haven’t been in many of my spaces over the last, you know, a few days, but I’ve been doing it the entire time because, like, you were so right. Like, when were talking about it, I’m like, why wouldn’t I not make Goldeneye? Nintendo 64. GoldenEye pause music. Like, my intro music on a space, and I’ve done it. I recognize some people that are in this space from when I started them up. They’ve heard it. They know I’m making this the intro music. Hang on real quick. For those just joining, we’re talking about the intro music for all the spaces that I ever do. I will never not have this music. Now, the Goldeneye pause music.

Reactions to GoldenEye Music

Yes. Just goes way too hard for pause music. Yes. Man, they really went trap with that 1990. It’s such a banger. No, like, it’s actually great. Like, remember were talking about it? You were like, because I don’t know what weird. Oh, I remember were talking about sleuth army stuff, and then. And then you sent that to me, and I was like, oh, Mandy, I’m gonna play it as my intro music in every space that I do. And you’re like, you should do it. That’s a banger. I’m like, I know it’s a banger. And so I haven’t. Ever since that day, I have not relented. This is like, day four of holding spaces. And that is my intro music now. It will never not be. First of all, I love hearing it. It takes me back to being a kid, sitting on the, like, living room floor with my buddies, and we’re playing Nintendo 64.

Nostalgic Memories and the Rules of Play

And the rule is no odd job. Nobody can have odd jobs. Yes. That’s cheating. Yeah. It would be a race to helicopter pilot. You have to start going right before the other person. Yeah, I remember all of that. That was so much fun. What a better time we lived in at that time. Instead of the time of accelerationism and telegram and all the things that we’re about to talk about. It’s about to get very dark. But I also, like, I’m actually kind of. I’m actually so b. I’m actually kind of concerned. I went and stealth listened on the Mario’s face and, like, Alex Jones, I think, was in there andrew Tate and many people, and they’re like, oh, it’s the matrix. It’s a free speech attack on free speech.

Concerns About Media and Government Responses

And Tucker even put out a tweet, which I understand why Tucker said what he said, because he interviewed the guy. So I actually want to play that clip of him talking about the toolkits that the random foreign governments and the federal government was trying to get him to install. Like, the back doors, right? The same thing that’s built into Twitter, the same thing that’s built into meta and Facebook and Instagram and everything else. But, like, that’s not what’s happening here, I don’t think. Like, so I had a space earlier, it wasn’t recorded. I just fired it up when I saw it happen. It’s like, holy shit. CEO telegrams arrested, and my other space crashed because I started talking about accelerate. Remember when I texted you earlier and you were like, oh, yeah, I’m actually doing what a mother should do. And I’m like, yes, you are. So, like, go do that.

Personal Engagement with Issues in Real Time

Don’t do this. But I’m playing barbies. You’re playing barbies. But, and so, like, I was. I was originally, like, ingesting this in real time, and I was trying to understand, like, what my position was on this. Yeah. Is this, like, the evidence of the western governments that they want to silence speech? And therefore, a lot of the challenges in these various different electoral races in different countries, are they pissed off? Are they organized on telegram? Are they shutting it down? And they’re going to try to attribute terrorism and CSam to the owner of Telegram, and therefore it’s going to usher in the Patriot Act 2.0. And those were thoughts that I had going through my head. And I was like, no, we need to push back.

Thoughts on Responsibility and Parenting

We need to be on our feet saying, listen, it is our duty, our responsibility if we believe in liberty and we believe in the second amendment, that we believe that I don’t need the government to protect me. My own second amendment rights and the pews and fishing rods that I have, that I lost in a boating accident that I have at the house will protect me because I’m taking responsibility, or am I taking responsibility as a parent to keep my kids out of these incel forums and these groups and everything else that they could be groomed to do something, discussing? And do I want that taken down? And then I started thinking about it more and more, and the question aroused. And I’ll ask the question, but I don’t want answer necessarily from you.

Complex Issues Surrounding Freedom of Speech

I want your take on this, of how you process this, because I’ve been processing it all day, and the question to me was, how much did this guy allow purposely? And how much is he funded by foreign governments to allow it to happen purposely? And what is the exact arrest about? Because the arrest says he’s arrested on terrorism, money laundering, pornography, so on and so forth. And I’m like, okay, well, fine. Those seem to be excuses and precursors to patriot act stuff and censorship, but this dude knew all of this stuff was going on this platform. And there’s a reason that he didn’t live in Russia anymore, that he was living in Dubai, and anybody living in Dubai in technology, we also know, like, the cutters and many other middle eastern governments that would also like to sow division in the west would fund something like that.

Contemplating the Role of the Telegram CEO

And how much of a blind eye did he turn? Because I don’t think, at his core, that free speech was at the core. We as Americans would think that. But I don’t think a russian Middle eastern national living in Dubai would have that same. Yeah. Argument. Go ahead. Go ahead. I’m seeing, like, the same stuff for people who are, like, having this weird. I’m just gonna say it, okay? This is a weird take to me, like, a Mary King saying, like, I’ll ride with the Tates till the end. Like, bro, are you.Yikes. I mean, listen, I’m just a normal person, but there’s, like, three people in the world that I would ride or die with until the end, and they’re all members of my family.

Reflections on Loyalty and Defense

It’s very strange to me that people get so caught up in defending. I mean, I’m like. I mean. But I’m like, ride or die. Adjacent. Be like, adjacent. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, adjacent. Sure. After my family’s taken care of and shit, for sure. We’re going. We’re going down, we’re going town if everything hits the fan. But what I’m saying is, like, you know, I’m not going to stick my neck out for, like, a giant billionaire tech mogul that I like, you know, that I don’t know. And we’ll never know what actually was going on behind the scenes. We’ll never know if this is just an influence op, if this is a. Or if he’s, like, really the next Julian Assange, right? So, yeah, it’s probably just me being super distrust. Distrustful for the reasons you just stated.

Concerns About Free Speech and Censorship

I mean, you know, does. Do you think that this guy is without, you know, without sin, so to speak? Or do you think that there’s something more to it. I’m not going to say either way, because I don’t know, but I’m definitely not just going to, like, put my entire reputation on the line and be like, he’s the saint. I don’t know that. Right. We might never know. I’ve softened up a little bit on this over the last few hours, just because, like, you know, I think it’s important, too, to point out that if you censor a platform, like, if you just take telegram down, well, we also know that’s not going to stop any of these things.

The Ineffectiveness of Censorship

It might slow it down temporarily, but it’s just going to be more of them popping up. We saw that with back page when back page went down. Now, if you look up back page like I did earlier, just to grab an article about it, and I. And that’s like, when I searched back page, the first things that came up on Google were tons of new, like, iterations of back pages, which are illegal, but they’re all over the place. So it didn’t really stop sex trafficking. It might have slowed it down. We don’t. It’s hard to say. Back page, if you remember, went down because of Trump’s crackdown in 2018 on sex trafficking on websites which was called Foster Sesta. Under Foster Sesta, section 230, which is the law that governs Internet service providers liabilities for things that other people say on their platform, no longer applied.

Legalities Surrounding Internet Regulations

If you could show that a platform was complicit in sex trafficking specifically. I’m not saying, I don’t know if that played into this, because this isn’t a US arrest, this is France. So, you know, and also, I think that there’s too much going on right now that for me to say, like, I don’t really know exactly what’s going on. Could they be trying to muscle him around for various political reasons? Absolutely. They probably are. Right. I think that my biggest take here is, first of all, it’s hard for me not to react kind of emotionally just because I’ve seen so much awful stuff there.

Personal Experiences with Platforms

But to be fair, then I started thinking, well, I’ve seen awful stuff everywhere, but I’ve only seen Telegram refuse to comply with a takedown request. Now, I saw, unfortunately, there’s a woman, you know, in my mentions who’s, you know, really passionate about this stuff, whose daughter was the victim of a 764 member, Kyle Spitz, and her daughters. See, Sam was all over a telegram channel, and she’s in Australia, and the australian government was petitioning them, trying to get them to take this channel down, and they would not do it, which really pissed me off. Like, why the hell not? You know? So it feels like I’ve been in this situation where I’ve actually been able to see telegram not complying with the actual CSAM takedown requests.

Critique of Telegram’s Compliance

I don’t know why they would do that. I think that my basic stance is that rather than considering these people flawless, like, oh, they’re beacons of free speech, right? We should be still criticizing tech platforms, guys. Okay? We need to be, we need to be really questioning these big tech moguls, Elon Musk and everybody else and their real intentions about things, right? Do they, do they take profit over things like child, you know, removing illegal content? Because we’re not talk. I’m not talking about free speech, protected stuff here. We’re talking about child pornography. That’s not protected speech, is illegal speech.

Obligations of Tech Platforms

And in every country, they’re going to have an obligation to remove that content and to comply to an extent with law enforcement investigations, including in the US. And so when platforms fail to moderate child pornography, child exploitation content, what they do is they give the government a foot in the door to then come in and say, oh, guess what? You weren’t complying with this. Therefore, we need to create a massive, ridiculous bill that’s going to infringe on everybody’s privacy under the guise of child safety. And we’ve seen that happen recently with a New York bill that came out that Elon actually bizarrely supported. That was really weird when he did that because that was an online child safety bill that I wouldn’t have supported because it basically required identity verification for everyone, everywhere.

Concerns About Identity Verification and Safety

So there’s lots of different aspects of this, and I don’t exactly know because we’ve been given only limited information about the telegram stuff. But just like, as a person who covers this kind of stuff, not exclusively, but very, almost exclusively, right? Like, most of my time nowadays is spent on telegram watching this stuff. And the other thing that’s annoying me today is that, like, there’s a lot of people who are, like, there’s no child porn on telegram, there’s no terrorism on telegram. Bro, I’m here to tell you that there is a lot of those things. And when I say terrorism, I’m not talking about people who are expressing their free speech, political opinion. I’m talking about people who are organizing and soliciting mass casualty events.

The Reality of Illegal Content on Telegram

Like, bro, I’m here to tell you. That that’s absolutely happening on paragraph and all these other channels like that. And it’s definitely happening and it does happen on other platforms, too. But but, you know, like to say that it’s not, we can talk about it, but to say that’s not happening is not, it’s just not factual. We can talk about this topic without distorting facts. I hate it when people do that, distort the facts to try to support their position despite basically lying. You know what I mean? Stop lying. And let’s just talk about this realistically because again, when the platforms don’t like somewhat moderate illegal content like eight chan, right.

Consequences of Non-Moderation

Or like back page, you know, they’re going to be seen as complicit and they’re going to be subject to government actions. And that’s bad for everybody. Bad for everybody when that happens. So I guess the question I would ask is, could it have been avoided by them actually moderating those things or was this really like a deep state matrix attack? You know what I mean? So let’s unpack it a little bit, right? Let’s explain what we’re talking about. So, like, I was talking with a couple people who are kind of more like towards the groiper camp, and I was talking to somebody earlier who’s kind of like a, you know, a Christian, you know, Christian first, but free speech, absolutist person.

Debating Censorship and the Nature of Speech

And they do make good points. They actually make good points to me. And it does raise a question. And basically the points they made was that if you start censoring, who becomes the judge, jury and executioner of what is speech that is actually criminal. So I’ll unpack that. 1st. 1st what I’ll say is if you’re inciting violence, if you’re inciting an assassination attempt on a sitting president, if you are advocating for child trafficking or child PDF file stuff, to me, those actions, the results of those actions would be illegal. Therefore, that’s illegal. That shouldn’t be protected speech. Like you’re not allowed to incite violence, you’re not allowed to incite a crime.

Reflections on Censorship and Crime

And so I I’m not a censor. I may, I’m a anti censorship, industrial complex person. You guys know that. You guys know what I’ve done on this platform. You guys know the work that I do. That’s my lane. Like, I understand censorship beyond a lot of people’s understanding. Mike Benz may be an exception, Matt Taibbi might be an exception. And then of course the censors would be an exception, like Renee Diresta and Alex all these people, which she wrote about me in her book, by the way. But. But I don’t advocate for protections of speech that advocate for committing crimes. However those speak, that speech of advocating for committing crimes will never disappear.

Persistence of Criminal Advocacy

It will return to the fringes, and then it will fester, and that it will metastasize in the fringes and that it will make its way back into the mainstream. And so, like, we’re never going to get rid of that. But I don’t think taking down a CEO of a platform that’s just simply saying, I don’t know, free speech, whatever, y’all figure it out. And not going after the people that are organizing the incitement. So, like, one of your biggest. Let’s. Let’s unpack this a little bit. Be one of your biggest complaints is, and I agree with you 1000%, are not the lunatic goofball kids that are groomed into, like, mass violence, mass casualty events.

Targeting the Root Causes of Violence

And we’re going to break all this down. So you guys know what we’re talking about. But they’re not, they weren’t at the time, they weren’t going after the people that were doing the grooming, that were doing the organizing, that were doing the networking, and they were existing on these platforms, and they were basically having a smorgasbord and inability to, okay, well, that kid’s gone because he got arrested because he was saying some wild shit about killing his parents and killing his pet. But the person that was doing the grooming is still active. Instead, the argument was, take the guys down, take the man or woman down.

Accountability in Digital Spaces

That’s actually setting forth this content and narrative and pushing these people or grooming these people into these acts. Those are the people you should be targeting. But I don’t think a CEO of a social media platform should be taken down. However, you’re also in control in the God mode keys of your platform, and you know this is happening. And you’re purposely not trying to take it down yourself nor participating with law enforcement to take these people down. And that’s the point where it leaves me with questions. I hope I explained that. B but I think you can expand on this.

Navigating Complex Issues of Law and Tech

But that’s kind of where I’m at with this. Yeah. So, you know, let’s talk about, you know, what you said about when we talk about illegal speech, a lot of people get kind of confused because it’s a confusing topic. You know, the. The thing is that when we say illegal speech, we’re not talking about, like, I hate XYZ. And I want all of them to die. Okay? That’s legal speech. That’s legal. You can advocate for genocide of entire populations online if you want. And even though I find that disgusting, the intent of the First Amendment was to protect speech, even speech that you find disgusting.

Understanding Legal Definitions of Speech

And there’s a really good reason for that. And we don’t. I don’t, I don’t promote giving them an inch when it comes to that kind of thing. Now, what is illegal is very, very specific. And it had, you know, the reason I think that the trash and I have started to kind of learn this together, actually, over the past, like, year or two, watching these criminals get arrested is that. And reading all these criminal complaints is that it takes them like a year or more sometimes to build a case against a person like this because they want it to be airtight, because they know that a good lawyer could still get them off on a first amendment type of issue.

The Complexity of Legal Cases

And so when it comes to a butcher from MKU, which if you maybe I’ll try to post that YouTube video in the nest. yeah, I was talking about Butcher earlier because he was actually the guy who was the person you should take down. Go ahead. Yeah, he’s the one that they took down. And here, I’ll share. I’ll send it to you on signal so you can do what you want with it. But, you know, this guy was one of the groomers. He was one of the people grooming kids to be mass shooting, mass shooters that we’re talking about. But even in that case, it’s kind of sketchy.

Nuances in Law Enforcement Approaches

Right? Because if you’re just. And, you know, if you’re just telling a person you’ll be really cool if you went and shot up this grocery store again, that’s pretty first amendment, you know. You know, it goes for the same thing about advocating for violence on a large platform. If you’re just a really small channel and you’re screaming into the void about, you know, killing people, unless you’re saying that you’re going to kill people, it’s still not likely to inciting kind of law enforcement action. But when you get into a private channel, you get into a private chat with somebody and you feel like that person, you know, hey, you know what you should do is you should go to the store by your house and, you know, kill all of the people who work there.

Incitement of Violence: Legal Implications

That is incitement of violence, that then you could actually say that they’re breaking the law. So it’s really nuanced when it comes to violent speech. When it comes to child pornography, it’s much more clear cut. That is not free speech. I’m actually appalled at how many people don’t have seem to understand, not just that most people go, of course, see, child pornography isn’t free speech. Well, it actually kind of used to be that there were like Supreme Court decisions that ended up excluding that specifically from your freedom of speech. And so that’s another issue that’s already off the table.

Child Exploitation Law and Tech Responsibility

It’s already illegal. There’s no reason to even consider it. Right? It’s illegal. And, you know, according to laws in the US, Internet service provider has to, you know, they can’t be complicit in this kind of, in child trafficking, child exploitation. They have to moderate it to an extent, because if they don’t, they go the way a back page and the government brings a case against them and says, you were complicit in sex trafficking. And it looks like that’s one of the things that they’ve charged the telegram CEO of. So it could be another situation where they’re trying to make a case for complacent.

The Burden of Proof in Tech Cases

And in that case, it’s really hard for me. It’s hard for me to remain objective and unbiased just because of the stuff that I’ve personally seen. I’ve seen them deny government requests for CSAM takedown. Why? I don’t know. I don’t know, but I’ve seen them deny requests. We talked about how on telegram, that’s a, you know, everybody talks about Thomas Crooks and, oh, what are these foreign encrypted apps that sound so exotic? Well, it’s telegram. He had a telegram account. He had a telegram account. And the reason the FBI wasn’t able to get into his messages is for this exact reason.

The Challenge of Encryption

Right? Not just necessarily his messages, but also like, you know, what channels he was in and like, his data, you know, they’re not going to comply with any of that. And so, I mean, it’s a fine line. On the one hand, I don’t want the government to be given an inch when it comes to being too heavy handed on these platforms and turning them into their intel surveillance machines. I don’t agree with that. On the other hand, it’s like when platforms don’t moderate illegal content, it gives the government an excuse to knock on their door and say, oh, you’re not following the law, therefore we’re going to bring all these legal actions against you and, you know, eventually possibly shut your platform down or, you know, start new bills, right?

The Long-Term Impact of Non-Compliance

Propose new bills and new legislations that affect the privacy of everybody because they’re not doing the bare minimum to comply with the law. So that’s my nuanced take. Like, no, like, let’s. Let’s bring some more color to this. I actually want to build this out because I think that both things can be true. I think that on the one hand, giraffe was like, you know, the. The previous. What was he called? The Facebook of Russia and he was forced out by Putin. I don’t know. I don’t know what that is. I’m not a russian citizen.

Discussion of International Context

I didn’t live through the Facebook of Russia. I don’t know what that is. And Tucker Carlson interviewed giraffe. And there’s a two minute clip I want you to listen to because this is important. When people ask me, like, what is going on inside Twitter 2.0, why am I being suppressed? Why am I being shadow banned? It could be coming from inside the house. I think it’s coming from outside the house because Twitter 1.0 algorithm, the entire framework that this is built on, had these toolkits. So here’s the argument that the free speech pro matrix, or taking this guy down, advocates are going to make.

Analysis of Media Clips

Listen to this. This is from Tucker Carlson back in April with Durav, the guy that was just arrested. Listen to this. Instances where we raised outside funding, but when it comes to company equity. Yeah. You didn’t give up ownership. We didn’t give anyone ownership. Damn it. What a dumb clip. Who would actually clip that? Hang on. I’m sorry. I thought this was. Okay. Here we go. We get too much attention from the FBI, the security agencies, wherever we came to the US.

Government Oversight on Tech Companies

So to give you an example, last time I was in the US, I brought an engineer that is working for telegram and there was an attempt to secretly hire my engineer behind my back by cybersecurity. Officers, or agents are called the us. Government had to hire your engineer? That’s my understanding. That’s what he told me. To write code for them or to break into telegram. They were curious to learn which open source libraries are integrated to the telegrams app on the client side. And they were trying to persuade him to use certain open source tools that he would then integrate into the telegrams code.

Concerns Over Backdoor Access in Telegram

That, in my understanding, would serve as. Backdoors, would allow the us government to spy on people who use telegram, the. Us government, to maybe any other government, because the backdoor is a backdoor regardless of who is using it. That’s right. And that’s a little surprising to hear. Maybe it’s not surprising, it’s offensive. You’re confident that happened? Yes. There is no reason for my engineer to make up the stories. Also because I personally experienced similar pressure in the US.

Personal Experiences with Government Pressure

Whenever I would go to the US, I would have two FBI agents quitting me at the airport asking questions. One time I was having my breakfast like 09:00 a.m. and the FBI showed up my house that I was renting. And that was quite surprising. And I thought, we are getting too much attention here. It’s probably not the best environment to run.

Government Awareness and Control

They knew I left Russia. They knew what you’re doing, but they wanted details. And my understanding is that they wanted to establish a relationship to, in a way, control telegram better. I understand that they were doing their job. It’s just that for us, running a privacy focused social media platform, that probably wasn’t the best environment to be. And we want to be focused. So again, be hearing that, like, I think all of that is actually true. I think that 100%, like, if you’re a social media platform that you would definitely like, you would obviously be approached by not only world governments, but the USA government and the intelligence community to use toolkits to create backdoors so they could monitor and do all these things. Yeah, sure. The problem I have really believable. Well, right. But the problem I have is that people are going to listen to this and they’re going to go with it and they’re saying, oh, this is obviously because he didn’t capitulate to the man and that’s why he’s doing this.

Consequences of Inaction

But what you talked about earlier, specifically, this is what’s bothering me about this, is that all of that is true and that is absolutely true. And I 100% think that definitely happened. But why wouldn’t you take down obvious CSAM and extortion networks and obviously violent grooming networks that are create, like they’re advocating for crimes. Why would you take that down? In the same breath of saying, I’m not going to bow to you, foreign government or us government, I’m not going to give you a backdoor. I got this. I’ll make sure that no crimes are being advocated for my network. And he didn’t do that. And, and I think that’s a nuanced take that I think a lot of people are gonna miss, and they’re probably gonna miss it in this. It’s probably gonna be, like, hyper politicized, but it bothers. It bothers me. Go ahead. Go ahead, Zachary.

Discussion on Responsibility and Freedom of Speech

Yeah. How do I put this in the nest? Is there a way? Yeah. So it’s like. Is it a post on twitter? No, it’s your post about butcher. Yeah. Yeah. So if you just go to it and you hit the share button, it. Should pop the share button. Yep. Share the space. Okay. Yeah. There you go. So y’all can see. Oh, I don’t know if it worked, but whatever. It will. It will. It’ll be up there. yeah, so you’re right. It’s kind of like what were talking about with the Andrew Tate stuff, right? Like this. And that’s such a much more straightforward issue, in my opinion. I went ahead and said it, bro. Like, if you’re defending this guy, I really do think there’s going to be, like, an Epstein effect later on down the road where it’s probably not going to be the best idea to, like, be a ride or die for him just because of the things that he’s actually said have come out of his mouth.

Speculations Around Arrests and Government Influence

Right. So. But at the same time, of course, he had a space or something, like an interview with Candace Owens two days prior to his arrest, which, of course, they organized all of that within two days simply because of something he said in annex space. No, not. Obviously not. This. This case had been going on for over a year. It’s actually more plausible, in my opinion, that they already knew that was coming, and maybe they organize that space. They could start talking about elite sex traffickers are going to take us down, guys. It’s all going to because of that. They’re, like, setting the stage right. This is. I forget there’s a word for it, that cult leaders do this. It’s like they’ll tell. They’ll make a prediction about something, so they already know that it’s going to come true, and so they set something up ahead of time. Right? So, yeah, I do believe that something like that happened there.

The Fine Line Between Speech and Extremism

And now when people are like, oh, see, not arrested, it’s because he was talking about the deep state. Well, this isn’t critical thinking. You’re not actually. You’re being way too easy to fool here. And I would say the same thing about this is, like, you can’t be blinded by the possibility of a big, giant government conspiracy, that you’re not actually looking at the facts. And that’s especially true when. When you’ve been on the end that we’ve been on, and you’ve actually seen for a fact that stuff is happening. You’ve seen, you’ve actually, like, I have been in the very, I guess, unique situation of having witnessed telegram decline a request by the australian government to remove CSAM. I saw it happen with my eyes. You can’t convince me it didn’t. You know, I don’t wish that anybody would be in that situation because it’s terrible. And I’m sure that it also biases me a bit and makes me angry.

Speculating About Corporate Responsibility

And so that’s why I was having to retract some things I said earlier and say, well, probably acting a little bit too harsh, probably like, think this through and get more facts. Right. But obviously my first initial knee jerk is like, yeah, that’s happening. Yeah. You know, however, the better question is it the CEO’s fault? Is he actually complicit? And that’s a much better, more deep question. And also, you know, I don’t. I don’t necessarily think that shutting down telegram is the answer either. Because again, in reality, we just don’t see that kind of stuff, really, unless it’s a really niche online community. Like, there are some very niche forums that I think if you took them down, they wouldn’t come back. But if it’s something just like a concept like telegram, there’s just going to be more competitive platforms coming in and filling in the space.

Regulatory Compliance and Social Responsibility

So, no, I don’t think that they should be removing telegram, but I do think the telegram should be more proactive at both removing CSAM and complying with government investigations when it comes to illegal activity. And again, we’re not talking about free speech issues here. Free speech issues are free speech issues and people should be left alone. But when we’re actually talking about subpoenas that have weight behind them that have to do with child exploitation or like, you know, an imminent terror attack or something, then I still would like, I feel safer knowing that platforms are working with the government to prevent a very, like they did with Bush or, you know, that we saw that we also had the unique perspective of watching the us government take down a telegram predator before he was able to commit a mass casualty attack a bunch of kids.

Understanding Context: The Butcher Case

So in the contrast to what you’re saying, let’s explain the butcher case, I think this is really important to note because again, I think that you’ve eloquently laid it out. And I see the hands. I’ll get to the hands, guys. And Gen Z has been up here the most, so he’ll get the first crack at it. But I think we should explain the butcher case. I think it will bring into context a lot of what we’re talking about, because we do separate freedom of speech, and that means, I hate all the jews. I think that somebody should just get rid of them off the earth. That’s first amendment protected speech. Go ahead and say it. Like, whatever. Like, go ahead. But, like, what butcher did is very different. I think that we should actually explain to people, like, what we’re talking about so they have a contrast or a context here.

The Butcher and Internet Extremism

And I would really. I would really invite you to watch that video that’s in the nest about it. It gives a much more elaborate breakdown than I’ll be able to give. And it’s a neat video. I think it’s good. I mean, it’s my video, so obviously, I think it’s neat. But you. I think you’ll like it anyways. Well, no series all day. Like, we can’t explain in the space what the context you provided in that video, but I think we should. Yeah, for a contrast in this space. We should explain it. Zachary. So the gist of it is that I had been doing a lot of research into people who are provoking mass shooters. Not because I’m not. I was never super convinced with the idea of stochastic terrorism, which is like, basically someone screaming racist shit on four chan is suddenly going to spawn a bunch of mass shooters.

Grooming and Radicalization

I believe that it was much more individualized than that. And one of the reasons I believe that was because of Peyton Gindren, the tops Buffalo shooter. I knew he had been groomed by somebody. I just wanted to find who that person was. And so that’s what kind of set me off. Well, I ended up stumbling upon a neo nazi ukrainian murder cult called the maniac murder cult, or MKU. And the leader, current leader of. Or former leader, I guess, because he’s in jail now. But at the time, the current leader of the group, his name was, went by the name Butcher. And this was one of the guys who was grooming mass shooters. He was. He was individually trying to recruit people and, you know, provoke them to commit very specific acts of terrorism, sometimes as a form of initiation into the group, kind of like a cult initiation, gang initiation kind of thing.

Aggressive Tactics for Terrorism

And, one of the things he was trying to do was plan a mass casualty attack in New York City, where he was planning to have a person solicit a person to dress up like Santa Claus and hand out poison candy to children, racial minority children, on Christmas. And then another time, he tried to ask the same guy to go to a, you know, wait for a jewish holiday and try to do it to a jewish schoolchildren. So really sick stuff. He was really trying to kill as many kids as he possibly could. And all the evidence is there. Not only is, and you could always say, well, the FBI probably set him up, but we had seen this guy doing this in other contexts. And so it was shocking to me to actually see the complaint come out and see the FBI build a case against this guy.

Federal Interventions and Online Threats

And he operated predominantly on telegram, so luckily, in that case, the person he. One of the people he was soliciting wasn’t undercover federal officer. And so that’s how he was able to get. You might be asking, how. How were they getting it from telegram? Well, it’s because he was talking to a fed. good, I guess because he was about to do something really awful. So there are these times where as much as I distrust the government in general, as much as I generally criticize the FBI about fucking everything, right? In this case, it was almost like I had to admit that they had actually done something worthwhile, which pained me, because, like, I. Trust me, I’m not a fan.

Preventing Future Threats

But, you know, indisputably they stop. They prevented this guy from really hurting a lot of people. So in those cases, right, where he’s over a year’s time, basically there, this guy’s been soliciting people online and trying to get them to go commit mass shootings and terror attacks. That’s the kind of terrorism we’re really talking about here. And I know that’s at the extreme end, because for sure there’s going to be plenty of people, especially people who are more on the left or more on the pro censorship side, who are going to say, oh, well, talking about wanting to genocide, XYZ is terrorism, but it’s not. It’s not terrorism until you’re about to. Unless you’re planning organizing or committing a politically motivated, violent action.

Defining Extremism

And they call that. They call it racially motivated violent extremism at that point, which is I. It’s not just that I want them all to die, but I want to kill them. And I’m going to. That. That’s where you cross the line from free speech to terrorism. So, just to be clear, I do understand the slippery slope involved, but at the same time, just because they’re a slippery slope exists doesn’t mean that we don’t draw a line somewhere. You know, obviously, for example, child Pornhood I hear a lot of people who claim to be free speech absolutists until it’s time to do free speech absolutist shit. And I’ll tell you a really quick story about this kind of funny.

Controversial Discussions on Free Speech

It’s kind of not funny, but it is kind of funny. Like, so whenever I brought up this issue about child porn, right? It’s not free speech. It’s not. But if you’re a free speech absolutist, then, like, technically, you would probably be making an argument that it should be. And people get mad about that and they go, that’s not what a free speech absolutist is. And then every time this group of people online who were like, free speech absolutist and bio massive, like, extreme, hardcore libertarian, will come in and actually argue that child porn should be free speech, and they’re, these people are deranged, by the way. They’re not like, mentally sane people.

The Slippery Slope of Censorship

They’re, like, absolutely unhinged. So it’s really funny to watch that happen every single time that I bring this up. It’s almost like they search for the keywords or something. I don’t. It’s weird. But anyways, I guess what I’m saying is, like, there’s a slippery slope there, right? Oh, you give the government the right to decide what child porn is, and so, no, bro, we’re going to draw the line here. We got to draw the line somewhere. Okay, so child porn stays illegal in, like, actually conspiring to commit terror attacks or soliciting terror attacks or provoking a terror attack to the point that maybe you’re grooming a child or a mentally ill person to go commit that attack.

Defining Criminal Actions

Those things have to remain illegal, period. And the rest of it, I’m not going to give the government an inch. I’m not going to be out there whining that people are screaming to genocide, Xyz. Because ultimately that has to remain free speech. And we are. This. This topic is one of those topics that are utilized to then push through authoritarian measures because we all want to feel safe. And then they start conflating people who. I mean, like, that shit’s outrageous, but it’s not like, it’s not inciting a criminal act. You just have unhinged views. Like, there is a line there.

Navigating Free Speech Issues

And I think that we can draw that line. I’m a pro free speech person, but I would rather talks of direct action, like criminality to be relegated to the fringes where it’s not part of the national conversation just because I’m a pro free speech person, but this is the same conversation that you get into be with drug prohibition. They make the argument, the pass out. The needles crew in San Francisco makes the argument saying that if we prohibit these things, it creates a black market for things, and therefore it festers and it gains momentum and steam and criminals make money out of it. Now, that’s the drug argument in this instance.

The Complexity of Criminalization

It’s not a black market argument that people. That the criminals are going to make money is that it will fester and it will still happen. And I just don’t agree with that. And not being allowed to cast a wide net of having actually, like, obviously criminal speech. And what I mean by that is advocating for violence, saying direct action violence, targeting an individual and creating said violence, and then arming and participating with them and helping them to commit said act or CSAM or any of that. And those are all illegal, by the way. Right. So everybody knows they’re already illegal.

Clarity in Communication

Yeah. Right. Right. But the reason for the space is to be precise, because it’s gonna get very cloudy over the next six to eight months now that this dude’s been arrested. And I think that you and I have a very nuanced, very esoteric approach to what’s going on here. And also, we don’t know the facts. The dude just got arrested. Yeah. I don’t know what’s charging. Documents are. Maybe he did participate in a crypto scam and a money laundering scam. And maybe he purposely. Maybe he purposely ignored these takedown requests of clearly criminal speech because he’s not a free speech absolutist, but maybe he has other intentions.

Considering Perspectives

And so all we can do is approach this from a nuanced point of view. But I can also tell you that all these things are happening. And you had confirmed. You actually have actually confirmed that the tops grocery store in Massachusetts, that shooter. That targeted Buffalo, New York. Buffalo, New York. Yeah, sorry. The black and brown shooters on live stream that he was specifically groomed, right? Yes. That person, I think it is. I even know who. I’m 90% sure, 99% sure I know who that person is and where he lives.

The Role of Digital Platforms

Like, so we know we’re at a point now where we can actually find these guys who’ve been grooming these kids. And surprising, surprise. Two years ago, I would have been like, it’s the feds. And now I’ve seen that. It’s not like, I mean, I would be shocked to find out that this person in particular had any kind of relationship with the federal government. Except possibly the military. Not to say it’s not always the case, but, you know, we’ve seen terrorists, domestic terrorists and foreign terrorists. There are people who don’t even live in the US who are provoking these kids and stuff.

Global Perspective on Extremism

Yeah, he’s georgian national. He was indicted and living in Moldova or hiding in Moldova, whatever. But like, he’s not an american citizen, he’s a georgian national who came out of like the Azov battalion Ukraine crew and that. Yeah, so like. All right, let’s get the hands. I want to hear what these people have to say because like, you and I, you know, you and I can do this all night. So. Gen Z, go ahead, get back to your mute button.

Engaging in Open Dialogue

Gen Z. Three, two, one. Whole grain. Go ahead. Hey, I was just going to say that. I mean, I think really the onus is on the platforms with operating in a sense of, I think morality is the thing because I mean, I guess just where I stand is obviously the more the freedom, the more you have the responsibility that’s required to steward that freedom. And I think it is tough of like, I was actually just trying to look up the article that TF one info put out and just like, I don’t know, throw it in Google Translate or whatever just so I could read it because I want to know more of the actual details of why he.

Exploring Child Protection Measures

Was arrested because I threw it into chat, GPT, whole grain. And what they said was he participated in some form or fashion of child exploitation, money laundering, terrorism, and I think drug exchanges. So basically they were saying that like, basically like the Silk road type. He got silk roaded. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, with that, it’s one of those things that it, I mean, I think everything that is not legal speech, that’s wrong. And I think we should figure out ways to protect kids while also being mindful of a patriot act situation. And where does this stop kind of thing? And that’s why I say that I think the onus should really be on the platforms.

Questions of Responsibility

Well, and that’s my question. And that was my question that I posed when I opened the space. I said, okay, how much of this is Ross Ulbricht and how much of this is actually intentional malice or intentional willful ignorance of a situation? That’s actually my question here. It’s not whether or not, like, free speech is being regulated or the west wants to take it down. It’s like, how much of this is Ross Ulbricht? How much of this is Silk Road? How much of this is the attack on the establishment and the power structure of the west. And we need to take down free speech because I’m not convinced that’s actually what’s happening here.

Seeking Clarity in Controversial Times

But we need more details. But we’re also trying to illuminate that there are direct examples of where this same person did not act on obvious illegal things that were happening that he had to have known about. And this is what my problem is on it. Yeah. And I mean, I just haven’t gotten as many details, like, but I mean, that’s just being guarded from a free speech perspective, but also really, more importantly, like, if this is really something dark and sinister, being open to that conversation, I guess. And I know that’s, well, and. That was my second part.

Understanding Intent and Actions

My second part was given the fact that he was flush out of Russia, living in Dubai, maybe had qatari funding and all these things that happened in the Middle east, was he actually not only willfully, intentionally ignoring it, but actually wanting to happen. So that’s kind of where I’m at. But I can tell you that he’s no free speech savior. I’m not convinced at this point. And b, you can chime in at any time, but I’m not convinced, bhdem, that he’s some free speech absolutist, Julian Assange, Edward Snowden type. I don’t think that’s what this is. And I think that a lot of people, even our side of the argument, are going to make that argument.

Concerns About Timing and Implications

So there’s no doubt that he was probably abusing that. In many ways that will come out years later. But the thing that worries and scares me the most is simply the timing of this. This is appalling timing. Whenever you’re seeing what’s going on specifically, I like to point out Britain. I mean, listen, you know, nine stabbings at that festival the other day, just in one spot. Just in one, you know, gathering of people. Yeah, I just worry that if there was nefarious acts going on, I feel like the government has been really, I mean, the EU specifically has been holding this in their back pocket and has been waiting till they needed the moment, absolute to pull the trigger on this and to really take this platform down. And that’s the only thing that worries me is the implications of what this means to people like Tommy Robinson that’s on the other side of that fight right now in Europe.

The Impact on Freedom of Speech

And we’ve already seen, you know, even through X and through Facebook and all these other mainstream platforms, people are going and getting sentenced to pretty much death sentences because they’re getting put in jail with the very people they’re trying to speak out against. I just, that’s the only thing I’m concerned on. I’d like to see some discourse on that, on the implications of what it’s going to be for the innocent people of Britain, of France, of Germany. And, you know, I really worry about Europe, and not only Europe, but the US. I just shared, I guess it got put down, but I had shared a post about Tim walls himself, talking about how free speech isn’t a guarantee. And that just goes to show that, you know, this is a large problem. And I’m not going to sympathize with telegram, like I said, his, the CEO or anything, but I do sympathize with the people that were using telegram for genuine movements that the government was cracking down on and wasn’t wanting happening.

Cultural Shifts and Concerns

This isn’t a matter of over there white supremacy or Nazism. It’s a simple matter of we need to keep our laurels and morals where they are and where they stand, because we’re seeing an uprooting of an entire culture happen over the span of the next five years. And I don’t think any of us in this space is really ready to see that or prepared for that. Because once that happens in Europe, it’s very quickly going to move to the United States with how much relations we have to Europe. It already has. I mean, but I guess that’s the main concern I have. I’m going to. Me too. No, like, listen, me too. And like, I want to get beast take on this and I’ll go through the hands, but I want to comment on that for a minute because there has been an amate, there’s been amazing movements and grassroots movements that have taken place on telegram.

Grassroots Movements and Political Responses

And I think that all of us, I can’t speak for anybody, but I would say that, like, I want a place for these people who are being suspended and banned and suppressed, where they had these communities that, whether on meta or Instagram or Facebook or whatever the hell, that they had a place that they could organize in the same respect that Marine Le Pen in France. This is brought to my attention by Katie Scarlett and I think it’s actually very appropriate. So there was a movement for the EU parliament in Brussels. And this movement for Marine Le Pen to get more right representation within the EU was actually very successful. So successful that Macron was actually like, oh shit. I still have three years in my tenure, but I’m going to go ahead and hold the snap election in response to the movement that took place. And a lot of it was organized on telegrams.

Impacts of Arrest and Government Actions

I know Tommy personally, I know what they did on telegram. And it was a net positive to try to fix some kind of broken system that’s going on in the UK and everything else in Europe. And I think that like the old guard in Europe are pretty much the central figures and a lot of being scared, whether it happens in the US or the Europe or other countries, the old power structures that would like to hang on to power. A lot of these people, the grassroots movements, the people that were and the resistance were coming up on encrypted international platforms like Telegram. And there was a lot of good that came out of it.

Platform Accountability and Criminal Content

I’m not suggesting that the entire, well, first of all, I don’t want that platform taken down at all. Second of all, I would like to see the details of why he was arrested to begin with. And third of all, what’s going on in France specifically, Katie Scarlett, shout out to you. Because it did resonate with me. I was like, okay, well, actually they are concerned and Macron is doing some really authoritarian shit by not seeding a prime minister that he should be seating because held a snap election because of reaction of what happened at the EU and Brussels. So, like, this is a very layered conversation. But what I’m saying is specifically is that I don’t care who the CEO is.

The Fine Line Between Freedom and Responsibility

I imagine that he knew all of these things that we highlighted were going on, and that he intentionally either ignored it or also did not cooperate with global authorities. Now, some of those requests could have been, we don’t like that speech. It’s hate speech. It’s not hate speech, it’s just truth. That’s something I wouldn’t want him to comply with. But also that he did refuse to take down CSAM. And so that inordinate amount of power and the continued like, criminality that was actually going on is a problem and the political movements will suffer. And maybe that was an attempt by the west or maybe that was an attempt by the power structures in Europe to basically say where their real beef was, okay, these movements are formulating on this platform.

Consequences and Social Responsibility

We can’t have that. We have to shut it down. And he was like, no, fuck you, I’m in Dubai. You can’t enforce this. At the same time, there were people that were going like, hey, children being exploited on this platform, can you take these down? And he said, no, I’m not doing it. And I don’t believe there’s an altruistic motive. That’s my problem with this. Like, I think that both things can be true. And I, and I think that’s, I think that’s the crossroads that we’re at. And I’m not sure what that looks like. And I’m pretty sure that like the western establishment would definitely like to take them down on the auspices of that.

Legal Perspectives and Platform Accountability

If what you’re saying is true, that he was using this platform for nefarious reasons for himself, then I want to make this very clear. The blame should fall on him. He knew the responsibility he was carrying. He knew the movements that he was carrying behind him. If he was truly, like you said, altruistic, he would have taken down the bad stuff in order to preserve what was actually grassroots movements. And that’s a failure, truly a failure of responsibility on his part. And he should face every consequence for that. However, like I said, I mean this was, it’s just simply put, it’s unfortunate, but again, that the court of public opinion, he should face prosecution for that.

Social Responsibility and Consequences

If, if he was using this, because of course the place you would go in your head naturally is, well, he was using it to also exploit children. And if, you know that’s where we go with this, if he’s not taking it down, then he is pro that. And he is, you know, or in my opinion, at the very worst, because I’m not willing to make that leap. At the very worst, he’s pro taking down of societal functions in the west. Exactly. That’s what I’m saying. Whether he’s pro CCM or not, I don’t think that’s true. I’m not willing to make that jump. But allowing it because it is toxifying a society is a different conversation altogether.

Legal Context and Implications

Much like the tick tock conversation. Right. I think it’s more. And, you know, I don’t I’m not willing to make that leap either. And, you know, I don’t, that’s how I, that’s why I’d like to know more about how much of it was just being purely complicit and how much of it was, sorry, how much of it was being ignorant of the situation and how much is being complicit by, for example, just stomping your foot and saying, I’m not going to help the us government, period, or I’m not going to help the australian government, period. Just, you know, because we don’t do things like that.

Criminal Responsibility and Accountability

And if that’s the case, then they are complicit. And if they’re complicit with CSAM like that, then they’re protecting child offenders and they’re profiting off of child offenders. And in that case I fully support, you know, big tech platforms facing consequences. I don’t know if I necessarily support arresting the CEO and shutting the site down, overdose that, but, you know, consequences for things like that should be on the table or else they’re going to do it, you know, because you have to incentivize. This is the fact. I hate, I hate to be this person, right, but this is the way we see this time and time again with every single platform.

Platform Accountability and Child Safety

You, no giant tech platform is just going to do things like this out of the goodness of their hearts. They’re not going to just like care about child safety out of the goodness of their hearts. They’re not doing it. There’s a lot of them, like Google, and I have to say, like, Google is probably one of the better platforms when it comes to child exploitation only. That’s all I’m talking about here. Okay, don’t get mad, but they really have done a better job than most other companies when it comes to removing that kind of content.

Comparison to Other Platforms

But, you know, for the most part, if you were to just tell them, we don’t care anymore, there’s a pretty high probability that they wouldn’t really make an effort to enforce it because it costs them money, you know, so, and it’s unfortunate that it’s like that. But, you know, if there aren’t, you know, consequences for a platform that just basically allows something like child pornography to run rampant on the platform, then what’s the difference between that and like a dark web child pornography website? There isn’t one, right?

Child Exploitation and Platform Responsibility

You have entire telegram channels dedicated to selling CSAM and taking crypto for it. So in that case, it’s like if they’re not removing that kind of content, then they’re just a child pornography hub. Right? And that’s saying if they know about it and they’re not removing it. I’m not trying to say I know that there’s going to be that kind of stuff on every platform regardless. But, you know, it’s like you were saying the onus is on the sites to some extent to make sure that it’s not so out of control that you’ve got another silk road going on, that it’s just like you’re basically just allowing this stuff to happen.

Trafficking and Accountability

You’re allowing trafficking and child pornography to happen. Then at what point do we step in and say, okay, yeah, we have to impose some kind of consequence on a platform for doing those things, you know, breaking the law. And I think that a lot of that decision was made in the Missouri v. Biden case from the Fifth Circuit where they said, like, yo, like, we can’t have, like, criminals. We can’t have, like, this criminality. We can’t have this. And, like, if you’re not gonna do it, then, like, we actually have to take action.

Consequences of Inaction

But what I don’t want is a platform being taken down. I don’t want a CEO or arrested unless he is actually personally tied specifically to, like, a money laundering operation. I agree. I agree. Yeah, yeah. What got that guy was that he had been allegedly had solicited some hitman for people. So, like, everyone’s like, free Ross. I’m like, but didn’t that dude, like, actually.

The Complexity of Cases

But they threw the book at him, though. No book at him. 100% for a political nature, not for, like, a criminal nature. But also they were just mad. Yeah, there’s that too. So again, like, these are nuances that we actually had to have the conversation about, which is the premise of the space. Because I’m like, yes, all right, listen. Like, Ross, like, I know the, I know that you knew what was going on, but most it was like, drugs.

Child Exploitation Discussion

It wasn’t really like, whatever. At the same time, like, caring about that shit. I really just care about the child porn. Right. Crimes. But, yeah, well, no, I don’t give a shit about drugs. Like, if you want to do drugs and ruin your life, and I’ll be here to support you when you want to change things around and I’ll try to help you. But, like, he actively actually sought help, like, an assassination plot.

Overall Reflections

Like, he, that’s when he stepped over the line and like, come on, Ross, man. Now they threw the book at him and we should probably get him out of jail. Because it’s nonsense. But like, also, like, Ross, don’t do that shit. Okay. All right, let me reset. This is. We’re never going to get to answer on this. Well, we’ll get, I’m sorry, let me rephrase that. We will get to answer on this when we see charging documents and evidence and discovery and we will actually be able to pay attention to see what’s going on.

Maintaining Freedom of Speech

We want to make sure that we’re, you know, keeping, retaining our right to joke around without being in fear of the FBI knocking down our doors. So, no, that’s not. That’s not actually a threat, you know? Yeah, exactly. Like, to the fact that I actually had to deal with, like, the Phoenix bureau of the FBI, because I put a meme out and I meant something completely different. But. But because the context could be perceived another way, we have to have this struggle session and we have to go through this.

The Impact of Misinterpretation

Crazy. That’s. Yeah, I believe you. You know. You know, that wouldn’t actually have gone to trial, though, but. Yeah, no, of course not. But, like, that’s also the problem. That’s intimidation, really. Right. That’s when that. When. Yeah, yeah, but no, it’s not, though. It’s not, though, because it was subjective. Right. Because someone somewhere could subjectively take it as a different meaning than what it was actually intended as. I then need to actually, like, process this complaint because it’s a problem. And so, like, no, it actually speaks to exactly what you’re talking about.

Nuanced Conversations and Challenges

Yeah, but. But again, like, man, it’s so tough. It is tough, you know? Yeah, we. Because it is. It’s a double edged sword. Right. because. And this is a problem that I have in the advocacy space or, like, you know, the. The child advocacy space is like, a lot of people clamor for. For you to do something about it. Like, you know, well, let. We got to stop child pornography. We got to stop child trafficking. It’s the biggest problem of our, you know, entire country. And then someone proposes something and they go, not like that. And you’re like, yeah, it’s frustrating.

Trust in Platforms

Like, I understand, though, that we don’t want to give the government any extra authority. I’ve all. People understand that it’s the same way with terrorism, right? Yeah, I want to stop mass shootings, but I don’t want to give the government authoritarian control over our Internet discourse in order to do it. And so, yeah, it is, it’s very double sided here. It’s. It’s a hard one. It’s not. There’s no. Just easy. I’m not going to sit up here and be like, listen, guys, here’s the solution. You know, it’s something that requires a lot of nuanced discussion that most people on this platform, unfortunately, or even in the country or the world, unfortunately, are not prepared to have nuanced discussions anymore.

The Problem of Nuance in Discourse

People are much too quick to just take the opinion of whatever it is figure that they tend to enjoy listening to and say, that’s my opinion, because I generally agree with this guy without actually giving it any more critical thought. And that’s the biggest problem we have, is that people aren’t. They’re willing to have these nuanced discussions anymore. So that’s why I like, if I. Can, if I can in spaces, what winds up happening is you hear a lot of people say things, and it’s more to show how loyal they are to their side than to actually have a debate. And I truly feel that, like, there’s people who can be honest, can have nuance.

Finding Common Ground

There’s always things that are right on both sides. There’s always things that are wrong on both sides. But that’s not what you hear on spaces. Where you hear on spaces is people screaming as loud as they can to prove that they’re loyal to their side with zero nuance whatsoever. That’s. There’s very. It’s very difficult to have actual good debate on spaces. I’d love to hear what you think. Trash, but, yeah, but like, you know. Yeah, no, there’s some speakers I think are good, like you. I respect you. There’s certain people I respect even that are on the other side of me, but they.

Value of Relationship in Discussions

I know they have nuance. Yeah. But, like, way too little people do. You and I go back, like, a long ways in this. In this discussion that you’re talking about, and I think I’ve agreed with you maybe 60 40 or 50. You and I have had some heated debates, but I don’t hate you. I actually like you, joa, even though I get frustrated sometimes. But that’s because we are approaching a topic that actually requires some discernibility. We actually need discernment. We need to stop, pull back, and be like, wait a minute. What are we seeing here? And I think that you do actually bring that.

Navigating Heated Conversations

I get frustrated with you sometimes, but I also agree 100% of what you just said. And so that tells me that, like, okay, that’s all right. That’s a guy that I want to talk to about an issue. And the purpose of the space was not to, like, make some kind of, like, final conclusion. I hope people understand this. We are not here to make some final conclusion. I’m actually matter of fact, I think. Becca, correct me if I’m wrong. I think we created the space to actually pump the brakes on the machine of moving through information warfare, and, you know, they’re turning all the frogs gay and all these things where we can actually, like.

The Need for Rational Discussion

Like, pull back and be like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. We have an educated. Things escalated quickly to, like, deep state matrix attack, and telegram’s a beautiful, flawless platform with no problems, and we’re like, whoa, let’s actually. Let’s talk about this. Like, that’s actually a bit over the top convenience. We can talk about it without stating things that are non factual, right, exactly. And that’s. And that’s what I do like about Joe so much is that, like, sometimes he does challenge me on my own position.

The Evolution of Debate

I’m like, okay. And, like, were in the heat of the battle last year. The heat of the battle is, was. It was a full force, speed moving political machine one way or the other, a bunch of activists. And then, like, the Israel thing happened, and, like, I was like, joa, stop being, like, a contrarian. Like, make your point. Stop being contrarian. But I appreciate people that can stop and be like, wait, wait, wait. And so I’m glad you’re here, because, like, you and I. I don’t know, man. Like, it’s been a wild ride the last few years.

Understanding Contrarian Perspectives

You know, it’s hard I do like. I do like, you just want to, like, be a contrarian immediately. Like, a knee jerk contrarian. Like, that’s what I’m like these days. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. No, I’m kind of the same way. I do like to be contrarian, just to bring a different view. Like, there’s. There’s one example I give all the time, trash, which is, look, is the real estate thing better? Good, right? Like, young people can’t afford homes anymore because prices are too high.

Diverse Perspectives on Real Estate

Right. Then I can also say your home values have increased like never before. Homes are more expensive than ever, so your net worth is actually higher now. So even on the same data point, it’s important to look at both sides. So a lot of times, I do play both sides. I’ll play the contrarian role just to, like, shed light on a different perspective. I don’t always even agree with it. I just want to hear what people. Have to say about it. And that’s why I respect you, and that’s why I would call you my friend.

Reflecting on Time Spent

We’ve had a wild ride the last two years, bro, and so I’m glad you came in the space, because, again, we are in a space right now. We’re talking about things that we are well versed on. That Becca is even more well versed on than I am, and that I understand. And we don’t have any information. So, like, we’re, like, spitballing and we’re trying to come to some kind of conclusion to try to understand, like, a world of which we don’t have all the information or facts on.

The Role of Education in Conversations

But there’s some times where I’m like, yeah. Like, I’m educated enough to say, like, no, that’s bullshit. But it requires people that would say, wait, stop. Have you thought about the other side? Have you waited 48 or 72 hours? Have you thought about this for a moment? It’s frustrating at times because we think we know, and we’re. And, like, nine times out of ten, I’m in my lane, I’m probably right. But it does require people to stop the momentum, to stop the pr momentum of a story and pull it back and be like, let’s ask some questions.

Pamphlet on Moral Responsibility

Let’s actually take a look at this. And that’s why I appreciate people like Joa and Becca. You’re my personal friend, so obviously, and this topic is specifically nuanced because of the other things that we talk about. But I think that’s important. And I think that we have a machine running on both sides, on both the left and the right, that I think that it runs, and it runs in its directions at the behest and the benefit of its platform that they’re not actually telling the truth.

Navigating Both Sides of the Debate

So I appreciate people who push back on me, and I’m hard to push back on because I bring some receipts. I’m kind of a buzz saw sometimes. Beck is definitely a buzz saw. Right. But I appreciate the pushback. Cause I’m like, all right, let me check it. Let me check it for a minute. Let me make sure I’m solid in my place. That’s why I appreciate you, Joe. So, so, thank you. I appreciate it.

The Importance of Dialogue

Yes, for sure, man. I appreciate you. whole grain, go ahead. You skipped me twice, by the way. Yeah, go ahead. Let that guy go. Let that guy go. No, whole green. You’re good. I just want to. Just want to let you know. You can. I’m. I’m. I’m good. Waiting. All right, I’ll listen, I’ll try to keep it short.

Government Trust and Platforms

But, I mean, we could spend our wheels talking about the house and the wise, but it’s never going to get fixed until we fix our government. And that’s, you know, I’m not just talking about our government. I’m talking about, you know, international trust in government. There’s never going to be trust, nor should there ever be trust. Trust. But there should be some reason that we can invest a certain level of faith that when we provide cooperation, the government is going to use that cooperation as a foot in the door to massively expand on everything that they want to do.

Cooperation and Systemic Issues

Like, they’re going to have to meet us halfway on that. And until that happens, we’re going to keep running into problems just like this, regardless of whether or not, you know, the CEO of, the owner of Telegram is guilty of, regardless of whether or not he deserved to be arrested. The fact of the matter is, there are platforms out there that people are going to use for nefarious, you know, for nefarious purposes, and they’re going to continue to be developed, and they’re going to continue to be used, and people are going to continue to hide behind, you know, these laws as an absolute until the government meets us halfway.

Importance of Government Action

Yeah. And kind of what I was getting at, too, is that I really do believe that when the onus is on the platforms, and the platforms come with good faith, I think there is a sense of, you know, it’s bad that there’s been multiple complaints on telegram withdeze just with child porn, and it’s not getting pulled off. And I think the meeting halfway is kind of what I’m getting at, and what I said earlier is the more you have freedom, the more you have to steward that freedom.

Self-Governance and Moral Responsibility

And I think it comes down to a John Adams thing of, like, you need a self governing people that are holy and are moral and religious to fill that void. I don’t think you can just have this nebulous vacuum liberty, like, now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s hoity toity and everybody has to wear a suit and everybody has to, like, it’s not puritanical. But I also think, like, there has to be a structure that, and I think that’s where the onus does go on the platforms.

Moral Responsibility and Media Platforms

And I think that’s a bad sign. I think that’s where the meeting of the halfway comes, is that when good faith is coming in both directions, it’s like, okay, we’re coming at this, right. But also, I think it’s just overall wise to wait a couple days and just see what are the charges, what’s actually going on and see what the actual document. But, I mean, that’s kind of my take on it is kind of what Burton was saying.

Building Trust in Media and Messaging

There is just having a halfway. So there’s mutual building of trust both ways. And I think it’s just tough for everybody because it’s an election year and everything’s been crazy. So everybody’s antenna is up for everything. And. Yeah, I don’t know. I just think that. But again, I’m going to stand on that the onus is on the platforms, and then when there is that moral structure or whatever, you don’t need the government to come in and be as regulatory as they can be.

The Role of Platforms in Children’s Safety

I mean, the onus is on the owners of the platforms, and the government, kids. Kids are. Kids are getting killed because these people can’t manage to sort their stuff out for the good of the, you know, for the good of society, you know, the end. Granted, that is pretty subjective, but I think we can all, you know, fully agree that, you know, child pornography, you know, sexual grooming of children and, you know, grooming people to carry out acts of terrorism are morally reprehensible, regardless of, you know, what your political or religious affiliation is.

Legality and Moral Accountability

Right. And it to be clear, they’re not just morally reprehensible, they’re also illegal. Yeah, yeah. And that’s. That’s. And that’s the important delineating factor. Right. That, you know, this is a different, this doesn’t even really have anything to do with free speech when it comes down to just that portion, what they’re charging, if we’re to believe or to, you know, acknowledge, accept that everything that they’re saying is true in the criminal complaint and that they’re being honest, then it’s really not an issue of free speech in that regard because none of those things would be covered by free speech anyways, not even in the US.

Free Speech in Legal Context

So. But again, yeah, I mean, there’s still always going to be the question of, well, was this just the reason that they were using to move in and attack free speech? And the answer is that’s definitely a possibility, you know, which is why people like us, like, well, like me, I know I’ve advocated for, you know, platforms to take moderation of content, illegal content, much more seriously.

Preventing Government Overreach

And one of the main reasons for doing so is to stop giving governments a reason to come in and confiscate and take everything and attack free speech in the process. Yeah. Like if you’re running a platform and you come across, you know, something like child pornography and you report it to, you know, to the authorities, first off, I’m not against that. I am a free speech absolutist, and I am not against a platform reporting somebody posting child pornography to the authorities because that is not freedom to speak.

Taking Responsibility as a Platform

You are absolutely right on that, Bex. So. But if they report it, the government has no reason to come in and, you know, infringe on free speech for whatever reason. I agree. Yeah, I’m, I totally agree with that. So that’s my biggest thing. Like, so this all comes back down to, right, this all comes back to personal liberty. This is why I believe in the second amendment.

Personal Responsibility in Protection

I believe that I should be able to protect myself and my family with guns or whatever, and that I should be, if I’m a parent, I should have an active role in my child’s life to protect them from venturing into these various different areas. And I don’t need the government to regulate in any sort of way to protect them from that. I have that personal responsibility to do so. And I think that this does ultimately, this conversation, regardless of whatever happens, we’ll wait for the charging documents.

Examining Case Outcomes

We’ll wait for the charging documents for the, for Andrew Tate. I mean, the dude said a lot on camera, so, like, that’s going to be a problem. But I will also wait for charging documents to come down on the CEO of Telegram and I would like to see exactly what the case involves. And then I would also like to say that, like, there’s no replacement of government intervention where personal liberty and your right to protect your family and your children will supersede that.

Personal Responsibility vs. Systemic Issues

And so I think that’s ultimately what this conversation comes down to. I don’t think the government needs to be involved in any of this. I think that also people, if they have a massive responsibility, like the CEO of social media program, and that they have a responsibility to actually take down illegal speech. Not hate speech, but illegal speech. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter whether or not that CEO is going to honor a more a moral framework to take down hate speech or criminal speech.

Holding Decision-Makers Accountable

We don’t have to wait on him and. Or him or her. But that same person also has a responsibility themselves. And if they tell the governments around the world to f off, I’m not interested in that. Well, then, now you’ve personally taken on that responsibility of monitoring that. If you don’t do that, I think it falls back on the person and then ultimately falls back on the parents. If it’s a minor and if you don’t take an active role and responsibility in your child’s lives, well, that’s actually your fault.

The Victim in the Equation

So whether or not the CEO of telegram is being arrested or not because you didn’t take down CSAm or allowed C Sam, you allowed your child as a parent to consume that. And I think it’s your responsibility. So this all comes down to personal responsibility versus government mandate. Well, I mean, the thing is that there’s a victim here and it’s not the parent.

Advocacy for Child Victims

Right? It’s the kid. And a lot of those kids don’t have parents or, you know, they have shitty parents, but those kids still need advocates and pathways to have their CSAm removed. Like, yeah, but I think we can be advocates. Yeah, well, that’s what we’ve done. But, like, you know, I’ve. I mean, I’ve been in a situation where the victim and her mother were trying to get the australian government to remove see Sam of her daughter from a telegram channel, and they just wouldn’t do it.

Frustration with Systemic Inaction

And it’s just like, why? I don’t get it. Like, you know, agree there’s no excuse. But I just couldn’t, I couldn’t square it away in my head. I couldn’t figure out why they wouldn’t do that. It just didn’t make any sense. I’m still trying to square that away. No, well, no, I agree. I just don’t want to get to the point where we have to have the government involved.

Advocacy Over Regulation

Yeah, I don’t either. I would much rather advocate to the platforms to acknowledge the dangers and the risk to free speech and privacy that they pose when they fail to do so. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. All right, I know you got to go. It’s 850 my time on the left coast. That means it’s 1050 at least at your time. B. So, guys, I appreciate it.

Exploring Complex Conversations

I just wanted to litigate this. I wanted to explore this conversation, and I didn’t want to make it black and white, like so many people who depend on their followers for a platform to make it black and white and make it some fight against the Matrix and saying, like, wait a minute, like, let’s pump the brakes here for a second. There’s a lot to talk about here.

Current Political Climate

This will be a conversation that will develop. Right now, we’re on the tailwinds of RFK endorsing Trump. So, like, the political capture of the media is going to be focused on that and, like, on the heels of the DNC. And so, like, what Kamala Harris is going to do, we’re going to get into this retail politics cycle.

Challenges in Information Dissemination

I just didn’t want to get this lost into a news cycle where sides were created when they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. I listened to a space earlier, a large space with, like, many large people, and I listened to it for 30 seconds, and I was like, none of you guys know what the fuck you’re talking about. And yet it seems to be presented as fact.

Concerns Over Future Discourse

And I think that we’re going to be on a bumpy ride. But all I’m saying is this. We are moving into a retail politics election cycle that’s going to be full of propaganda, it’s going to be full of. Astroturfs can be full of bullshit, and there’s going to be a lot of people, they’re going to try to capitalize for their audience by saying a bunch of bullshit. And I’m just saying, pump your brakes.

Call for Critical Thinking

Pump your fucking brakes, because I don’t know exactly what this is about. And a lot of people are speaking matter of factly about this, and they have zero idea what they’re talking about, let alone, like, Becca, who knows exactly what she’s talking about, and me pretty much knows what I’m talking about. And we don’t have answers. I just don’t want that narrative to set, is my point.

Closing Remarks and Resources

B. If you want to end the space? Plug. Plug your stuff. Plug your socials, guys. Go watch these fucking documentaries. They’re like 30 minutes apiece or three of them. It’s 90 minutes of your time. It’s like 20 minutes apiece. Really? Like now, right? Like, you spent like an hour listening to the space. You can go watch them and actually. Understand less if you want.

Actionable Steps for Awareness

And a half exit. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you, trash that. My YouTube, it’s up. Trash has posted a link to it already in the nest there. It says butcher on it. That’s the part three, but there’s a three part so far, three part mini doc series getting a lot of traction. I really appreciate everybody who’s watched it and given feedback.

Importance of Public Awareness

It’s just like, wow. Like, honestly, a lot of people have seen it, and that’s really awesome. We’re trying to push it because it’s. Honestly, it’s such a different look at the terrorism landscape and at the child, you know, child safety, online safety landscape. It’s something that I think everybody should see, especially parents, so that they really understand kind of what’s going on.

Engagement and Future Conversations

So go give those a watch. It’s like a three part. Also, have a new YouTube channel if you guys want to go subscribe to it. That’d be super duper cool. You can always hit the link in my bio, too, for other, like, rumble and other stuff, but, yeah, thanks, trash, for having me, as always. I think this are really good spaces, and they’re really, like you said, we’re getting into, like, the weeds, and that’s a good thing sometimes.

Continued Support for Critical Dialogue

So thanks for coming and listening to me talk. No, we’re always going to be in the weeds, right? Because, like, this is where we belong. Because we understand it and then take from it what you will. But I’m just telling you, like, this is happening, whether it’s a national conversation or a global conversation right now or five years from now, it’s happening.

Understanding Global Context

Like, you need to understand what’s going on. So, like, I think the mission. I’m not going to speak for you, but it seems to be that you’re like, I don’t know. We’re going to talk about it. Y’all figure it out. I don’t know how important it ranks on your priorities, but, like, you should probably make it a priority. At least you should understand, like, what’s going on.

Encouragement to Engage

So, like, I think that’s the lane. I think that’s. I think that’s where we’re at. So go follow BX go follow, go to the YouTube channel. Go watch these. Go watch it. Listen, take 60 or 90 minutes and watch all three, please. For God’s sake. It’s stupid. Like, it’s so dumb to me.

Critical Engagement with Information

They’re like, well, I didn’t watch that. But, like, listen, Hannity said, Sean Hannity said on Fox News the other day, he said x, y, and Z. I’m like, I don’t know, man. Like, fuck it. You’re cooked. Wake up. Wake up.